(Note: Everything in block quotes are quotes either from the Watchtower Publication "What Does the Bible Really Teach", or quotes from the bible text used in my copy of Accordance Bible Software. Additionally, I ask that when you read the exchange from Frank and Dank (names changed to protect the innocent) don't prejudge them as representing an evil organization. The only alterior motive that they may have is to hopefully get me to be baptized into the organization, but that in and of itself, doesn't make them evil (and of course, I've already been baptised into Jesus). Our fight is not against flesh and blood people, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens. -Ephesians 6:12. Frank and Dank genuinely believe that they have the truth and they want to share that truth that they believe, and some of it really is the truth. But as we'll read in later transcripts, truth is always confirmed by God, so all of us believe something. It's just a matter of whether it gels with what God actually says or not. In the end, I hope that I'm able to share some light with them as they challenge me to confirm whether or not what I believe is true according to scripture.)
Frank:
Is This What God Purposed?Now lets look over to the next place, Chris.
READ any newspaper. Look at television, or listen to the radio. There are so many stories of crime, war, and terrorism! Think about your own troubles. Perhaps illness or the death of a loved one is causing you great distress. You may feel like the good man Job, who said that he was “drenched with misery.”—Job 10:15, The Holy Bible in the Language of Today.
Ask yourself:
▪ Is this what God purposed for me and for the rest of mankind?
▪ Where can I find help to cope with my problems?
▪ Is there any hope that we will ever see peace on the earth?
The Bible provides satisfying answers to these questions.
Chris: (chuckling) Yeah, I think this is where we-- I don't think we got past last time!
Frank: Yeah! And all of these things - this is what the bible teaches and we've got the scriptures - these are hope, this [is] a beautiful hope here that we can look forward to and it helps us to appreciate it. This ain't no pipe dream ya know. These things - if Jehovah God - if you had someone to tell you the truth for so long, if he told you something else, would you have any reason to doubt him? If he told you the truth every time, and then told you something else would you have any reason to doubt?
Chris: Oh no.. not at all...
Frank:
BENEFIT FROM WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES
Do not quickly dismiss what is presented on the preceding pages as mere wishful thinking. God has promised to bring these things about, and the Bible explains how he will do so.
But the Bible does more than that. It provides the key to your enjoying a truly satisfying life even now. Think for a moment about your own anxieties and troubles. They may include money matters, family problems, loss of health, or the death of a loved one. The Bible can help you to deal with problems today, and it can provide relief by answering such questions as these:
▪ Why do we suffer?
▪ How can we cope with life’s anxieties?
▪ How can we make our family life happier?
▪ What happens to us when we die?
▪ Will we ever see our dead loved ones again?
▪ How can we be sure that God will fulfill his promises for the future?
These are some pretty good questions that we need answered. I know when I first studied, anything to do with death, man, I wanted to know about it ya know, and I got some satisfying answers to those questions. Helping us to appreciate where different ones spoke about it [death] like Jesus, what he said about death, the Apostle Paul, and the ressurection... it gave me a lotta hope.
The fact that you are reading this book shows that you would like to find out what the Bible teaches. This book will help you. Notice that the paragraphs have corresponding questions at the bottom of the page.And it also goes over how to get to know the bible, which you already know all of that. And um, you know about the books of the Bible, the Hebrew and the Greek, so lets turn over to chapter one. Now it says:
What Is the Truth About God?
Now you see these questions:
Does God really care about you?
What is God like? Does he have a name?
Is it possible to get close to God?
Chris: Mmm Hmm
Frank: Now what we want to do as we go through this chapter...
Chris: Mmm Hmm... Answer those questions?
Frank: Yeah. Just listen out for the answers. So if you will um, Chris how 'bout um -- and see the questions at the bottom? As we read the paragraph, we're going to ask these questions, so we going to read [paragraphs 1 and 2]. The question [at the bottom of the page] is "Why is it often good to ask questions? So we're going to find the answers in --
Chris: -- oh in the first two paragraphs?
Frank: Yeah, so how 'bout reading paragraphs 1 and 2 and we'll just alternate with the reading.
Chris: Ok.. So...
HAVE you ever noticed the way children ask questions? Many start asking as soon as they learn to speak. With wide, eager eyes, they look up at you and ask such things as: Why is the sky blue? What are the stars made of? Who taught the birds to sing? You may try hard to answer, but it is not always easy. Even your best answer may lead to yet another question: Why?Frank: Yes... So paragraphs one and two, why is it often good to ask questions?
2 Children are not the only ones who ask questions. As we grow up, we keep asking. We do this in order to find our way, to learn of dangers that we need to avoid, or to satisfy our curiosity. But many people seem to stop asking questions, especially the most important ones. At least, they stop searching for the answers.
Chris: Just to satisfy curiosity and avoid danger.
Frank: Yes. Yes. Okay, let's go on to paragraph three. Dank, you wanna read that one?
Dank: Of course...
3 Think about the question on the cover of this book, the questions raised in the preface, or those at the beginning of this chapter. These are some of the most important questions you can ask. Yet, many people have given up trying to find the answers. Why? Does the Bible have the answers? Some feel that its answers are too hard to understand. Others worry that asking questions could lead to shame or embarrassment. And some decide that such questions are best left to religious leaders and teachers. What about you?Frank: Well okay, for paragraph 3, Why do many stop trying to find answers to the questions that matter most?
Chris: Well I find that a lot of people don't even want to talk about it because they don't know and a lot of times, they don't know what's true. Especially, when trying to read the King James version of the bible a lot of times. The language is so arcane to them.
Frank: What is another reason though, that some people might not want to ask questions?
(Note: I forgot that I was supposed to stick to the format or script so-to-speak.)
Chris: Well like we just read, there's a lot of different reasons...
Frank: Can ya think about somebody not sure of themselves? And they may feel what?...
Chris: Shame.
Frank: Yeah. Shame and embarrassment see. And this is something that we try to encourage. Especially when we find some who's not really sure of themselves. And it's showing another thing. It's showing love, ya know. Because we all need help. So paragraph 4 and 5 says:
4 Very likely you are interested in getting answers to life’s big questions. No doubt you sometimes wonder: ‘What is the purpose of life? Is this life all there is? What is God really like?’ It is good to ask such questions, and it is important that you do not give up until you find satisfying, reliable answers. The famous teacher Jesus Christ said: “Keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you.”—Matthew 7:7.So the question for 4 and 5 is, "What are some of the most important questions we can ask in life and why should we seek the answers?"
5 If you “keep on seeking” for answers to the important questions, you will find that the search can be very rewarding. (Proverbs 2:1-5) Despite what other people may have told you, there are answers, and you can find them—in the Bible. The answers are not too hard to understand. Better yet, they bring hope and joy. And they can help you to live a satisfying life right now. To begin, let us consider a question that has troubled many people.
Chris: Oh yeah, "[What is the] purpose of life?" and "What is God really like?"
Frank: Yeah, and why should we seek the answers to these questions?
Chris: Well, in here it says, to bring hope and joy and that's a good answer, but uhm, and I wanted to look up this verse, Proverbs 2:1...
Frank: Yeah, Yeah, we want to read that, Proverbs 2:1-5. It helps you to appreciate that the search for answers can be very rewarding.
(We all silently read the passage in different versions on the screen):
“MY SON, if you will receive my words and treasure up my commandments within you, Making your ear attentive to skillful and godly Wisdom and inclining and directing your heart and mind to understanding [applying all your powers to the quest for it]; Yes, if you cry out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, If you seek [Wisdom] as for silver and search for skillful and godly Wisdom as for hidden treasures, Then you will understand the reverent and worshipful fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of [our omniscient] God.” —Proverbs 2:1–5 AMPFrank: So you see how those verses are beneficial to us?
Chris: So, if I were to answer this [question], "Why should we seek the answers?", And according to Proverbs 2:1-5, the reason we should seek the answers would be to get Godly wisdom. Well, it says [in the Amplified Version] skillful and Godly wisdom, which tells me there can be other kinds of wisdom - ungodly wisdom and unskillful wisdom.
Frank: (sinks back in the sofa and looks up towards the ceiling, pondering what I just said) Ungodly wisdom...
Chris: Because he qualified wisdom by saying it was godly wisdom. If it was just wisdom, if all wisdom was good, he wouldn't have to say "godly wisdom".
Frank: Oh, okay. Okay, I see what you saying, because if you talk about the wisdom of the world, we'd say it's foolishness with God (a quotation from 1 Corinthians 3:19)
Chris: Exactly
Frank: Very good point...
Dank: He's sharp!
Frank: (chuckles)
Chris: Because I talk with people all the time, and we talked about this last time, that there's a way that seems right to a man, but to God, it's foolishness (a mangled quotation from Proverbs 16:25, and 14:12, which actually reads "...but the end thereof are the ways of death")
And then of course, the first answer I would have given when [the book] asks "Why should we seek the answers, the first verse that popped in my head was, "...to have and enjoy life". That's John 10:10. But anyway...
Dank: And one thing to, if you notice another appropriate scripture is Mathew 7:7 that's quoted right there. It says, "keep on asking". Because this is what Jesus said, "and just keep on knocking and it will be open to you". So he's imploring us to keep on asking, keep on knocking, and keep on digging. Just like when you read in Proverbs... to search for it like it was a treasure. That means that we have to do what you evidently do, dig deep into the scripture, and it say that we can get the knowledge of God - yours says the "wisdom [of God]", but ours says the "knowledge of God" which is the same thing.
(Note: Dank was noting the differences in the New World Translation of the bible when compared to the other versions that I had on the screen at the time, The New English Translation, The King James Version, the Amplified Bible, and the Message Bible. After listening to the recording, I should have pointed out that wisdom and knowledge are not the same thing, because there are a lot of people that know about God and know some of the things that God knows, but yet aren't wise. Wisdom = knowledge + understanding + application. All most people need to have knowledge is a book or a dictionary)
Frank: And this brings something out, you know that this "looking deeper" - what does this tell us about our Creator and what kind of God he his? Can you see love in that he's wanting us to know these things?
Ok, Chris. This brings us to the subheading, "Is God Uncaring and Hard-Hearted?" How about reading that for us...
6 Many people think that the answer to that question is yes. ‘If God cared,’ they reason, ‘would not the world be a very different place?’ We look around and see a world full of war, hatred, and misery. And as individuals, we get sick, we suffer, we lose loved ones in death. Thus, many say, ‘If God cared about us and our problems, would he not prevent such things from happening?’...and this is where we agreed, and I've always believed even before I really got into the Word and coming up as a child. I kinda had sense enough to know, that if God is good, and God is good all the time, God is love, then all of this [evil] stuff ain't God. That just made sense to my mind. You know if little child got ran over by a bus, -- well God didn't have no plan for that! God didn't "will" that. As I told you, the churches I grew up in, said that "All things work together..." I said, come on now, don't start with that... And I think that's what discredits us as believers, as followers, as Christians, is when we try to make up stuff and try to give God a reason why stuff happened, when there [clearly] is sin in the earth. So, that's one of my pet peeves when I'm talking with people and they start talking about, "Well, if God wanted me have it, he would let be a certain way".
Frank: Yeah, that's a good point you're bringing out there. One of the things that we don't have to do is try to make up or help Jehovah out. His Word can stand on its own.
Chris: ...if we read it and we don't take it out of context, we'll be alright.
Frank: Yeah, Yeah. Okay, so this question for paragraph six; "Why do many people think God is uncaring, when it comes to human suffering?"
Chris: Oh yeah, because it seems like he lets things happen, but what I always tell people is, "God allows what we allow". You know, He's in Heaven, and I think this is what we were talking about last time - or how I got off into how I was saying that God gave us authority and dominion; and thats actually in Genesis.
Frank: Okay, when you mean when he gave us free will? Is that what you were talking about?
Chris: Well, yeah, he gave us free will but he actually gave us dominion.
Frank: Dominion over the animals?
Chris: Right,
“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth,And that's the operative clause right there, dominion over all the earth.
and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” —Genesis 1:26 KJVSo it seems to me, God created the earth and He gave [us] dominion, and that word "dominion" is the Hebrew word "radah". So that word means, prevail against, reign and rule. So if he's given us reign and rule over the earth, we need to know what that is and how to operate it. Because He said it and so I need to know if we're supposed to have dominion and he gave it to us and it says it right here in Genesis 1:26...
Frank: Well..., one of the things to keep in mind Chris is that when he gave us that, our first parents were perfect.
Chris: Well, naw, he gave it to Adam.
Frank: That's what it said when it said “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it,” (—Genesis 1:28 NWT.) See he had um, what His purpose was for Adam and Eve to fill the earth with righteous people, because that's the way they were. But then when they sinned, they lost a lot of things. Think about it, when Adam was -- Jehovah God was bringing animals to Adam for Adam to give them a name and that was all of the animals. He didn't have any fear of the animals and they didn't have any fear of him. What happened when they sinned? Then they lost that perfection.
Chris: Right, and so, that's why the second Adam came - Jesus.
Frank: Jesus - yeah, to make things right, but one of the things -- when Jesus came he was perfect. But mankind is in a death state right now, but Jehovah God has in the future... but Jesus made it possible now for us to gain back what Adam lost, but right now regardless of everything that we can do, although we have dominion over the animals - we probably can go out and kill 'em, but it's unlike the way Jehovah God has-- from the beginning it was his purpose...
Chris: Yeah, but see, God is everlasting and he changes not... In other words he doesn't change his mind. He doesn't say, "I'ma give 'em dominion now, but they sinned, so we can't give 'em dominion again." In other words, His perfect plan was for us to have dominion right?
Frank: Yeah, and live forever, and be in perfect health, but we fell short.
Chris: Now I remember us going over that scripture last week, that was Matthew...? It was one of the first scriptures that you mentioned to me last week, it was Matthew something...
Frank: Was it concerning our first parents?
Chris: No. I forgot what we were actually talking about, but it'll come back to me. But uhm, where were we, number 6?
Frank: Yeah number 6, so the question for number 6, "Why do many people think that God is uncaring when it comes to human suffering? Yeah, you answered that, didn't you.
Chris: Yeah, and that's why I was saying that it's the way we [as Christians] portray God. And even some people who aren't Christians, but it's just something they've heard all their lives, growing up.
Frank: You're right. That is so true, and I've heard people say too, Chris, "Well, my father believed this, and my mother believed this and I'm a bone or a stump-knocker or whatever and this is seasoning to me and I'm gonna be that way". Well, that's a sad way to be. I think about how my mother and father would tell us things. And I would check it out and see whether it was true. I remember one time and there was a incident they was talking about Jesus when he was baptized, and a lot of preachers would say, "It's a dove, the spirit as a dove came and landed on Jesus' shoulder". So I -- when I got to reading the bible I didn't see where it said that it landed on his shoulder, it said it descended upon him. I explained that to my father, I remembered that and I said, "See what the Bible says daddy?". But people come up, like you said, with different views... Let's get paragraph 7, you read the last one didn't you.
Chris: hmm hmm
Frank: Dank, how about paragraph seven.
Dank:
7 Worse yet, religious teachers sometimes lead people to think that God is hardhearted. How so? When tragedy strikes, they say that it is God’s will. In effect, such teachers blame God for the bad things that happen. Is that the truth about God? What does the Bible really teach? James 1:13 answers: “When under trial, let no one say: ‘I am being tried by God.’ For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.” So God is never the source of the wickedness you see in the world around you. (Job 34:10-12) Granted, he does allow bad things to happen. But there is a big difference between allowing something to happen and causing it.
Frank: So we got an "a" and a "b" question for paragraph 7. "How have religious teachers led many to think that God is hard-hearted?"
Chris: Well, just by saying it. They say, "well God did it", or "he won't put no more on you than you can bear". That's another good one.
Frank: And what does James 1:13 help to bring out?
Chris: It says, "Let no man say, when he is tempted, tested, and tried, that he's tempted, tested and tried by God." -James 1:13 Chris' Alt Version
Frank: Right, Right, being a God of love. But let's look at Job 34:10-12. You wanna read that Chris?
Chris: Yeah, I'm gonna read it out of this New English Translation.
“Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, from the Almighty to do evil. For he repays a person for his work, and according to the conduct of a person, he causes the consequences to find him. Indeed, in truth, God does not act wickedly, and the Almighty does not pervert justice.” —Job 34:10–12 NET
Frank: Yep, that was some good counsel coming from...
Chris: That was from Elihu, wasn't it?
Frank: Yeah, .... these three comfortors...
Chris: ...they were all just terrible...
Frank: ...yeah, they were supposed to be comforting Job...
Chris: ...I like when God came in there and said, "Who is this talking 'bout stuff that they don't know what they talkin' 'bout?" - Job 38:2 Chris' Alt Version
Frank: Isn't that something? (everyone laughs) I tell you what, that's a beautiful thing there what Jehovah God was asking him, talking about some of the animals and we look in the world to day and we associate...
Chris: Basically, what he was doing, He was just reminding Job that Job didn't create nothin'. But one thing I can appreciate, actually, the book of Job, that's one of the first books of the bible that I really actually delved into and studied, because for years... You know we hear people say, especially at funerals, "The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away" And while its true that that's in the bible, God didn't say that. That was Job talking, and Job was saying that out of his -- I mean, he was hurt. He was sick, he had lost everything, and so, what a lot of people don't realize, is that Job didn't have a revelation of Satan and there was no need for Job to have a revelation of Satan, because there was nothing that Job could do about it, so everything that happend to Job, he figured it was all God. But now in this dispensation, and after Jesus died and rose again, we have a revelation of Satan, because Jesus told us that "the thief comes to steal kill and destroy, but I've come that you may have life and life more abundantly"
Frank: Very good, very good. And that's why its so important for us to do like you're doing, to read and study the scriptures, because just like 2nd Timothy brings out, “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” —2 Timothy 3:16,17 NWT And it brings it all out, and I tell a lot of people that this is our manual. You get your automobile and they give you a manual, and you use it right and you can take care of your automobile. And this is the way this is. We apply everything that's in the scriptures here and we benefit ourselves. Okay, we've got the "a" part there, the "b" part, "What does the bible really teach about the trials we may suffer?".
Chris: Now, in here, according to what's written here in this [Bible Teach] book, it's teaching that God's allowing and that he's not causing it. Right?
Frank: Yeah
Chris: But, just as a side note, what would you say to someone when they ask, "Why is God allowing it?".
Frank: Yeah, Yeah, we'll get to that, yeah, we'll get to that. Yeah, we'll definitely cover it and you'll see it and get a GOOD picture of it. Yeah...
Chris: okay...
Frank: Okay, let's see.... Dank, you read that, uhm, paragraph 8 and 9:
8 For example, think about a wise and loving father with a grown son who is still living at home with his parents. When the son becomes rebellious and decides to leave home, his father does not stop him. The son pursues a bad way of life and gets into trouble. Is the father the cause of his son’s problems? No. (Luke 15:11-13) Similarly, God has not stopped humans when they have chosen to pursue a bad course, but he is not the cause of the problems that have resulted. Surely, then, it would be unfair to blame God for all the troubles of mankind.
9 God has good reasons for allowing mankind to follow a bad course. As our wise and powerful Creator, he does not have to explain his reasons to us. Out of love, however, God does this. You will learn more about these reasons in Chapter 11. But rest assured that God is not responsible for the problems we face. On the contrary, he gives us the only hope for a solution!—Isaiah 33:2.
So paragraphs 8 and 9, we got an "A" and "B" question. "How might you illustrate the difference between allowing wickedness to exist and causing it.
Chris: I use a similar example when I'm talking with people. This house I'm living in is a house that we rent from somebody. I used to rent one of my properties in Birmingham, I'm from Birmingham, AL. I used to rent my house out to this guy. Now it's still my house, and I rent it out to him. I give him dominion and control over what's going to go on with that house, according to the lease. But if he lets people come in and out of the house and smoke dope, smoke whatever, or punch holes in walls, one, I don't know about it and I can't do anything about it because I gave him control over it...
Frank: You allowing it to happen...
Chris: Yeah, and he's a grown man and he pays his rent, and he's doing the things that I told him needs to be done as far as the lease is concerned, but he still has control over that property, because I'm in another state.
Frank: Right, and if something comes up and the authorities go in there and find drugs or anything in your house, they couldn't come back blaming you for it.
Dank: Right
Chris: They have to take him to jail
Frank: This is a good example, that's a good illustration.
Chris: But, after he goes to jail, now I gotta go back in there and clean up the mess and that's what God is going to do at the end. He's going to come back and renovate this place for us and we're going to come back here and dwell.
Frank: Yes, there's definitely a difference between allowing something and causing it. Just like that father is not responsible for that son wanting to go out on his own and do things.
Chris: And, this - I'm getting back to what we were talking about earlier, because I just can't help it--. People say a lot of times, "Well he's God, he's almighty, he's powerful, can't he stop it?" Well, he can because he's powerful, but in His sovereignty, he's given us the authority and dominion. Jesus was telling his disciples, "Why don't you pray that the Lord send some people down here to bring in the harvest?" Well God knows that we need to save souls, why don't he just send them? Why do we have to pray for him to send them? Where is that scripture?
Frank: I know what you talking about
Chris: Well I don't want to get off [topic]...
Dank: We use that a lot about "beg the master to send out more workers"--[NWT], but the thing of is though is that what we've learned, and I think we're going to probably cover it, and I think you're going to be reasonable, when we get to it in this context about why doesn't God go ahead and do something about it, now. Well, God has a reason. You're going to find out that God has a reason for allowing suffering. He has a reason for allowing it to go on for a while. He has a timetable of his own when he's going to decide to do it and why. The reason is profound and has a powerful impact.
(Spoiler Alert: The "Bible Teach" book essentially teaches that since satan showed his butt in front of the whole host of heaven, God is allowing things to run it's course to show the angels that satan was wrong. I haven't found any support for this theory in the bible. The answer found in the bible about "Why?" is simply, to use the illustration about the rental, if I gave the guy authority to use the house and we're in covenant, I can't legally come in there and run the house that he's still in. Jesus said, “I tell you the solemn truth, the one who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a robber. The one who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.” —John 10:1–2 NET. God sent Jesus into the "sheepfold" of this earth legally to reclaim the authority that satan, who entered the sheepfold through deception in the garden of Eden, had stolen from Adam and Eve through said deception. Remember in Matthew, when Jesus was resurrected, he said, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” —Matthew 28:18 KJV, so now we can do things in His name.)
(Spoiler Alert: The "Bible Teach" book essentially teaches that since satan showed his butt in front of the whole host of heaven, God is allowing things to run it's course to show the angels that satan was wrong. I haven't found any support for this theory in the bible. The answer found in the bible about "Why?" is simply, to use the illustration about the rental, if I gave the guy authority to use the house and we're in covenant, I can't legally come in there and run the house that he's still in. Jesus said, “I tell you the solemn truth, the one who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a robber. The one who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.” —John 10:1–2 NET. God sent Jesus into the "sheepfold" of this earth legally to reclaim the authority that satan, who entered the sheepfold through deception in the garden of Eden, had stolen from Adam and Eve through said deception. Remember in Matthew, when Jesus was resurrected, he said, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” —Matthew 28:18 KJV, so now we can do things in His name.)
Frank: Yeah, hmm hmm, very good.
Dank: When you come to that reason [In Chapter 11 of the "Bible Teach" book], you'll see.
Chris: Matthew 9:38... I was just looking up something.
[I took a little time to look up all of the scripture references from the previous paragraph in my computer software.]
[I took a little time to look up all of the scripture references from the previous paragraph in my computer software.]
Frank: Luke 15:11-13, yeah you know what situation this is [The story of the Prodigal Son], so it helps you to appreciate that the father wasn't responsible.
Chris: But it also speaks of personal responsibility because the son had to come to himself. He had to realize that he didn't have to live the way he was living. And that he had certain rights, and that he had certain responsibilities.
Frank: But then it sets something else too, to help you appreciate what a loving God Jehovah is. That father portrayed that by welcoming that son back to him. Which helps us to appreciate how Jehovah welcomes us back when we stray, if we're repentant. So you can pick up on quite a few examples of God's Word the Bible and the illustrations that we'll cover. Okay, let's see the "b" part to that - "Why would it be unfair for us to find fault with God's decision to allow mankind to pursue a wayward course?"
Chris: Well, uhm... again, just according to what written here in this [Bible Teach] book, it's saying that it would be unfair because it's not God's fault.
Frank: Okay, but what else does it bring out there?
Chris: (Looking up the scripture reference (Isaiah 33:2) in the previous paragraph)
Frank: Do you see in that scripture there why it's unfair for us to find fault with God's decision to allow mankind to pursue a wayward course? That last sentence helps us to appreciate what?
Chris: Oh, you're talking about hope for a solution?
Frank: Yeah. See, that scripture brings it out there:
“LORD, be merciful to us! We wait for you. Give us strength each morning! Deliver us when distress comes.” —Isaiah 33:2 NETSo it helps us to appreciate, we don't wanna blame Jehovah God because He gives us the only solution to our problems.
Chris: Right, so what's the solution in what you're saying here? I mean how is Isaiah 33:2 helping me to appreciate the solution? What's the solution?
Frank: Ok, here's the thing of what we're talking about here. Listen to the question again: "Why it's unfair for us to find fault with God's decision to allow mankind to pursue a wayward course?" So if Jehovah God is gonna provide the only solution to it, would be fair for us to find fault?
Chris: Well it definitely wouldn't be fair, but I guess what I'm saying is, right here it says "hope for a solution".
Frank: Hmm hmm, gives us the only hope for a solution see? So yeah we wouldn't blame him. It wouldn't be fair.
Chris: Oh, ok. What I'm doing is I'm connecting [Isaiah] 33:2 with "only hope for a solution". I'm trying to see what they have to do with one another. What does Isaiah 33:2 have to do with "the only hope for a solution"?
Frank: Well, the scripture itself there. Brother Smith?
[Note: I didn't know it at the time since I didn't have a copy of the NWT in my software, but the phrase "hope for a solution" is an allusion to the way the NWT translates part of Isaiah 33:2. Most translations read "Be gracious or merciful to us, O Lord, in you we have waited, while the NWT reads, "In you we have hoped."]
[Note: I didn't know it at the time since I didn't have a copy of the NWT in my software, but the phrase "hope for a solution" is an allusion to the way the NWT translates part of Isaiah 33:2. Most translations read "Be gracious or merciful to us, O Lord, in you we have waited, while the NWT reads, "In you we have hoped."]
Dank: Well it says there, even in that translation there it says;
“O LORD, be gracious unto us; we have waited for thee: be thou their arm every morning” —Isaiah 33:2 KJVNow "arm" here would carry with it the connotation - when you speak of "arm" is something that is powerful, something that can move, something that can change things. If you want to move something around, when you want to changes as humans, we use our arms to move things, to handle things, to do things with. So Jehovah is our "arm" in that He is going to fix everything so it would be definitely wrong to find fault in how he's doing the thing. He has a plan. As a matter of fact, He's the only one that can fix things, so that's the whole idea. He's the only one that has the "arm" the power to fix everything, so we should have hope in that. And that should give us hope. Look, this is the one that's going to come and save us and make things right, so I definitely wouldn't want to disagree with him and the way he choose to handle things.
Chris: I guess where I'm stuck at is, and I don't want to belabor the point, but it says that even here...
“be thou their arm every morning, our salvation also in the time of trouble.” —Isaiah 33:2 KJV
So you said it could be strength. Okay. But also arm can be both strength and comfort, right?
Dank: Right.
Chris: ...and protection
Dank: All of the above.
Chris: And the arm holds the shield and "our salvation also in the time of trouble". So if I'm in trouble, he is my strength and my salvation. So--
Dank: And we live time of trouble definitely.
Frank: So with the words you just spoke, there's no reason, it wouldn't be fair to find fault.
Chris: But is says give us strength each morning, I'm just looking at different versions. And there's another scripture in Psalms that says his mercies are new every morning...
Dank: What it makes me think of when I see there where it says "every morning", to me that phrase carries with it the idea of... see we see things as happening on a daily basis, everyday. That's the way we think. We think in 24 hour periods. So we can look for this to be everyday, he will lift us up so we can count on it per se. It's the regularity of counting on his mercy, his power, his strength, his comfort.
Chris: Or even in the morning, like tomorrow morning...
Dank: Yeah it can be literal or figurative.
Chris: Well this here looks to be more literal than figurative because if I'm praying today and I want to be delivered, well, I'm going to go to sleep, but when I get up in the morning, I need things to be happening. I need to have a new day tomorrow and that makes it practical because I believe that God's Word is very practical.
Dank: And I'll go along with that, but then even Jehovah would give us scriptures like this that would still make reference to a long term [situation] and that's what we're talking about, his salvation for man, but we know it probably won't be in the morning when we wake up literally...
Chris: But there still is salvation for in the morning, so what I'm saying is that we have to be cognizant of that. Because if I'm trippin' today, there is salvation for me in the morning. In our walk we have to be mindful of that and be able to depend on that, because we can depend on it.
Frank: And we've got so many scriptures, it's like Brother Smith brought out there that helps us to appreciate. One of them is Proverbs 3:5,6. “Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight.” —Proverbs 3:5–6 NWT So when we're trusting that when we wake up in the morning, we're thankful that things will be made right.
Dank: We also trust him with our future. The future of mankind and all the ills of mankind will be cleaned up and straightened out. We trust Him in that as well.
[Note: This is the point where it clicks in my head that the JW's have a LOT of hope in the future, but not much faith and power for the here and now, so I patiently wait for an perfect opportunity to share that part of the good news with them, that it seems that they lack. Sure, I'm looking forward to heaven and the new earth, but I need some stuff happening now!]
Frank: Yes... Okay. Uhm. Chris I believe it's your turn, so how about paragraph number 10.
Chris:
10 Furthermore, God is holy. (Isaiah 6:3) This means that he is pure and clean. There is no trace of badness in him. So we can trust him completely. That is more than we can say for humans, who sometimes become corrupt. Even the most honest human in authority often does not have the power to undo the damage that bad people do. But God is all-powerful. He can and will undo all the effects that wickedness has had on mankind. When God acts, he will do so in a way that will end evil forever!—Psalm 37:9-11.
Frank: Yes. So paragraph 10: "Why can we trust that God will undo all the effects of wickness?"
Chris: Because he is holy period.
Frank: Yes. Let's look at the scripture here in Psalms... You want to read that Chris?
Chris: Yes I'll read it in the Amplified...
“For evildoers shall be cut off, but those who wait and hope and look for the Lord [in the end] shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the evildoers will be no more; though you look with care where they used to be, they will not be found. But the meek [in the end] shall inherit the earth and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.” —Psalms 37:9–11 AMPFrank: So you see how that is brought out there and why we can trust that God is going to do away with wickedness. Because he will do away with wickedness, so we can hope in Jehovah.
So how do you feel? We can go on, or we can mark our books here and pick on this the next time.
Chris: Oh, it's on y'all. I just don't want to keep y'all like I did last time. [We normally start at about 6pm and end up going to 8:30-9pm!]
Frank: Okay, HOW DOES GOD FEEL ABOUT INJUSTICES WE FACE? Who's turn is it this time?
Dank: (points to Chris)
Chris: Oh it's my turn?
Frank: Okay we'll go to Paragraph 11
Chris:
11 In the meantime, how does God feel about what is going on in the world and in your life? Well, the Bible teaches that God is “a lover of justice.” (Psalm 37:28) So he cares deeply about what is right and what is wrong. He hates all kinds of injustice. The Bible says that God “felt hurt at his heart” when badness filled the world in times past. (Genesis 6:5, 6) God has not changed. (Malachi 3:6) He still hates to see the suffering that is taking place worldwide. And God hates to see people suffer. “He cares for you,” the Bible says.—1 Peter 5:7.
Frank: Okay, we have an "a" and a "b" question for paragraph 11. "How does God feel about injustice"
Chris: Oh he hates it, He's a lover of justice.
Frank: Yes, it's brought out there in Psalm 37:28.
Chris: You know this - they call it the NET bible. This is a good one for bible study because the people who actually translated it, they put all of their translation notes - I mean it's like 60+ thousand translators notes, and I like it because sometimes I'll be reading along and wonder why they translate a certain word or phrase the way that they did, so we're able to read why they did that.
Frank: So what does that, "being a lover of justice" what does that help us to appreciate concerning Jehovah God.
Chris: It just helps to realize that he's righteous and we have no reason to be afraid and to fear that he's not going to make everything right.
Frank: And the scripture there is Genesis 6:5, 6, and let's get the "b" part, "How does God feel about your suffering?
Chris: (reading 1 Peter 5:7 on the screen) yeah, I like reading this in the whole context here. If we read verses 5 through 8 [instead of just verse 7], actually I was just talking to my daughter about this on yesterday, it says:
“Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:” —1 Peter 5:5–8 KJV
In the KJV, it reads, "whom he may devour", but I like the way it reads in the NET bible, “Be sober and alert. Your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is on the prowl looking for someone to devour.” —1 Peter 5:8 NET
And I was telling her that a lot of the stuff she sees her friends going through is all because of Satan, because he's looking for people that he can kill, steal and destroy, John 10:10. But Jesus came so that she can have life and have it more abundantly, so what this is implying to me is that Satan is not really a roaring lion, he's "like" a roaring lion, in other words, it's like if you hear loud roaring outside your door, you may think it's a lion and be afraid, but if you open the door and look, you'll see that it's just a tape recorder hooked up to a speaker, so there's nothing to be afraid of. And that's how satan is, he's really not a roaring lion, but he is like a roaring lion. Seeking someone who he may devour, but there are some people who he can't devour.
Frank: And that roaring lion there, it helps you to appreciate if you just think about that roar. What does that roar do? He can roar in such a way that you'll have that [roar] reverberate and the animals don't know where he is, and nine times out of ten, some of them will run right into them. That's something I've experienced right down here in Jacksonville at the zoo, but he was in something like a pit. But when that lion got to roaring it got the attention of everbody and you could see everyone all over the zoo grounds going in that direction. But when he's out there on an open plain and he's hungry for his prey, he can hold his head down to the ground and roar and nine times out of ten they'll run right into him. Brother Smith?
Dank: Like a lion, Satan also picks up on the spiritually weak. Lions a lot of times don't want to work that hard for their food. That's why that simile is there. I mean, he looks for the weak ones, the lame ones, and like you said, or the young ones in the same context that you just read, because the young ones are not listening to their elders and we're trying to protect them from the lions, and they're lagging right out there and lions do that all the time in the literal sense.
Chris: Yeah, and they know how to getcha. He's not going to try anything new if the same old trick keeps working.
Frank: He's not a creator so he can devise something new and catch us by surprise. He uses the same tactics over and over again. And it works for him.
Dank: And He [God] cares for us, there's no doubt about it.
Chris: But we have to humble ourselves. We have to be sober, we gotta be vigilant.
Frank: And what does it say there about how God felt around Noah's day there.
Chris: Yeah, lets look at that. That's in Genesis 6:5,6
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth;” —Genesis 6:5–7 KJV
Dank: I like that in the New English Translation in verse 6.
“The LORD regretted that he had made humankind on the earth, and he was highly offended.” —Genesis 6:6 NET
That kinda says it...
Frank: Yeah... They had something that came out on Jeopardy that asked which one was the most accurate translation and uhm, nobody got the answer, so Alex Trebech said, "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures" was the most accurate.
[Note: You'll see in a later transcript that we talked about this in detail and I showed him a lot of proof that this never happened.]
[Note: You'll see in a later transcript that we talked about this in detail and I showed him a lot of proof that this never happened.]
Dank: What I liked about that, it [I'm assuming he's talking about a meeting they had where this rumor was propogated] showed a comparative block like he has right their (pointing at the side-by-side blocks of different bible translations on the screen) of different translations, and [Jason] BeDuhn, [Author of Truth in Translation,] was in that, he's a bible scholar at a major theological school, and he even agreed on that... It's similar to that New English Translation -- our New World Translation. It's similar in a lot of ways. I see a lot of similarities there.
Frank: That's a beautiful setup you have there...
Dank: Yeah it's nice man, you can cross reference at the flick of a finger, that's nice there, I've been looking at it... He got Scofield, he got some of everything....
Chris: Yeah, I can go in here and put my own little personal notes in here, that's what this "Personal Translation" is, because sometimes if I find something that really stands out to me, I like to re-word in such a way that young people can understand it, because I have a stepson that lives in Tennessee and I try to explain certain scriptures to him where he can understand it and it'll be on his level.
Dank: How do you get such a program? I mean is that the limit of all the translations you can get on there?
Chris: Oh noooo... noooo... Well the way this works, the name of the software is Accordance, but it's a modular type program. When first bought it, it only had KJV and a few other modules, books, notes, etc. But over time, I've bought other versions and translations and a couple of Hebrew and Greek texts as well just so I can...
Dank: ...So you can just add to it?
Chris: Yeah, you can just add to it, but they have a lot of different books, translations, etc. But it's only for the Macintosh though.
Dank: I wish you could add New World Translation to that so you could compare that along with it, just to see what would happen. If you run across something where you can do that and then compare it and see what you think. I see you're a reasoning person and you like to... I would like to see that...
Chris: Yeah, you know I was actually talking to my mother-in-law's husband and I was trying to explain to him how Christians run across someone saying something that they don't agree with, they shut down and say, "Well, I don't want to talk to them". But God called us to peace. He didn't call us to strife and division, but a lot of times... You know there was a time when John got offended at Jesus when John was in jail...
Frank: ...Oh yeah, and wanted to know whether that was him?
Chris: Yeah. He knew that Jesus was the one, but John got offended. So what happens a lot of times is that Christians get offended at one another when others don't act or react the way we think they ought to act or react. And that causes us not to want to sit down and reason with one another and study the scriptures and it's a sad state of affairs when people can't sit down and fellowship around the Word of God.
[We're on the www.accordancebible.com website to see if we can find the New World Translation, but of course they don't]
So... this is the website here and I wonder if they have the New World Translation. But they do have quite a few translations and books. This the version that I have now with 11 versions and 50 books. But it really is a good program to use. But for Windows they have a pretty nice program called Logos, but Accordance is really, really powerful, especially for a scholar. And I'm definitely not a Scholar by no stretch of the imagination. Here are all the commentaries and dictionaries. They have a Jewish Collection and a Scholars Collection. It's amazing to me just how many English versions of the bible there are.
Just as I've grown and learned, I fellowship with some guys online and they just don't trust certain versions at all, so they never read them at all, but I like to eat the fish and spit out the bones, but I don't throw away everything, but you just have to know how to discern scripture.
But I don't see the New World Translation on here.
[I'm frantically searching the website for the New World Translation so I can buy and see what they're actually reading]
Frank: Can you just type it in instead of abbreviating it?
Chris: Nope can't find it that way?
Frank: Try typing in "The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures" and see if that comes up?
He's fast with that thing... (everyone laughs)
He's fast with that thing... (everyone laughs)
Dank: What kind of work do you do? Do you work with computers?
Chris: Technically, I'm an audiovisual guy. Well, I'm Director of AV, so when people come to the convention center and they need AV services...
Dank: When you say AV services, what....
Chris: ...Like they need to do a presentation, so they need a screen, projector and a laptop, and they need somebody to help them put their powerpoint presentation togehter, so I do stuff like that.
Frank: Oh, okay.
Dank: Wow. Do you do that on the side?
Chris: Yeah, I do sound, actually I use to do a lot of work with a lot of different churches to help them fix their sound systems and stuff like that. But I really like to teach lay people how to do sound.
Dank: I would like to learn. Because I mess around... I got a semi-studio and band and we play in our living room.
Chris: Do y'all record too?
Dank: I don't know what I'm doing? No I just got an old regular PA that needs work...
Frank: Yeah they do a good job.
Dank: Me and my daughters and my wife, we sit around....
Frank: What kind guitar is that you got?
Dank: I play bass guitar.
Chris: You look a bass guitar player!
Frank: Did you find that [NWT for Accordance]?
Chris: No...
What I've found, actually this particular book, this is called "The Word" and it seems to be out of print and it's hard to find many translations that I'd like to compare in Accordance, so what I have to do is find a text online, then I can import it into Accordance. But I don't know what I'd do with out computers though...
What I've found, actually this particular book, this is called "The Word" and it seems to be out of print and it's hard to find many translations that I'd like to compare in Accordance, so what I have to do is find a text online, then I can import it into Accordance. But I don't know what I'd do with out computers though...
Frank: How are you situated with time Dank?
Dank: How are you situated? I'm fine...
Frank: Well where did we stop off?
Chris: The last one I read was paragraph 11.
Frank: So why don't we go on through to the next sub-heading and we'll mark out books?
Chris: Ok.
Frank: Ok, Dank, how about 12 and 13.
Dank:
12 How can we be sure that God hates to see suffering? Here is further proof. The Bible teaches that man was made in the image of God. (Genesis 1:26) We thus have good qualities because God has good qualities. For example, does it bother you to see innocent people suffer? If you care about such injustices, be assured that God feels even more strongly about them.
13 One of the best things about humans is our ability to love. That also reflects God. The Bible teaches that “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) We love because God loves. Would love move you to end the suffering and the injustice you see in the world? If you had the power to do that, would you do it? Of course you would! You can be just as sure that God will end suffering and injustice. The promises mentioned in the preface of this book are not mere dreams or idle hopes. God’s promises are sure to come true! In order to put faith in such promises, though, you need to know more about the God who has made them.
Frank: So paragraph 12 and 13, we have an "a" and a "b" question. "Why do we have good qualities such as love and how does love effect our view of the world?"
Chris: Because we're made in the image of God and God is love. And the scripture says that His love is shed abroad in our hearts.
Frank: Why can you be sure that God really will do something about world problems?
Chris: Because he is love and he has the power.
Frank: And put yourself in his place - being a God of love and seeing all of these things going on around us. If we had the power what would we do, you know? Wouldn't we do something about it? So we can really be sure that Jehovah is going to do something about it. Okay Brother Smith?
Dank: Because the thing of it is, he went right to the point. He said, God is Love and God has the power and then to make a personal application of that when you asked the question if we had had the power, would we do it and since we're made in God's image, we feel the same way he feels about injustices. Because if we see something going on bad out there, if we somebody choking a little old lady or kidnapping a little kid and you and I can do something, we're going to stop it, it's just in our nature because we're created in God's image and we can't stand it. Now with our little "I can't stand it", how much so would the most powerful, can't stand it well. We got that from him. We got that feeling of can't stand that injustice from him.
Frank: Okay. I tell you what, Chris, we'll mark our books here and next time we come we'll take up from here.
Chris: Alright.
Frank: And normally before and after the study we'll say a prayer to Jehovah and we'll do it this time and we look forward to the next time and I'll call you or you'll call me.
Chris: Yeah, I have your number and I usually try to get home early since we're going into our slow season, for the most part.
Frank: Well we'll petition Jehovah. All wise everlasting God Jehovah, in Jesus name, we humbly approach your lofty throne of undeserved kindness at this time. Thanking you Jehovah for the many wonderful blessings that you bestow upon us. We thank you for our life health and strength and all of these beautiful provisions that you make possible to keep us going day in and day out. Jehovah we thank you for making it possible for us to be in the home of Chris to have a study of your Word the Bible by means of the Bible Teach book. As always Jehovah as we cover this material, we want to be able to bring it out where we can clearly understand it and see how we can apply it into our lives and make us better servants of you, and in doing so to bring honor and praise to your rich and holy name. Jehovah, we do love you and we want to do your will, so please be with us in such a way that we can do this more fully. We ask you to please be with Chris and his household and strengthen him and build him up please in the way that you would have him to go. He seems to be knowlegeable and continually learning and have the desire to learn more about you so please Jehovah bless his effort and again strengthen him and build him up in the way that you would have him to go. Jehovah we realize a lot of times when we try to learn more about you or get our lives more so in harmony with your arrangement of things, these are opposing forces and are continually trying to throw hurdles against us to try to block our path of learning more about you and applying it in our lives, so we ask you to please be with Chris and strengthen him and build him up to where if there are any hurdles that come up he'll be able to overcome them. Jehovah we do fall short of coming up to your righteous standards from time to time. We ask you to please forgive us and at the same time strengthen us. And now Jehovah as we prepare to do other things, we turn all of our lives into your care. These and other blessings we ask in your son Jesus name, Amen.
Chris: Amen. Well brothers, I appreciate it.
[We all stand and walk towards the front door]
Dank: I'm glad he brought me over, because I had been asking about you too. I said, 'Did you ever get that guy on Carteret that we met that day? He seemed real right, man.'
Frank: Yeah, I had been by a few times, but I would always come by at the wrong time.
Chris: Well, I appreciate it and I look forward to next time. Take care and be safe out there.
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