Meeting Number 3, Dec. 14, 2009: Rough Transcript
On this meeting Frank brought a young "friend" along with him. We'll call him "Skeet" to protect his identity. Since the last meeting, I've added the New World Translation into my Accordance software to be able to compare their version with other versions. I've also had a chance to read a couple of really decent books to better understand the JW's and where they're coming from:
How to Respond to 'What Does the Bible Really Teach', by Wilbur Lingle
Captives of a Concept: Anatomy of an illusion by Don Cameron
(Understanding the illusionary concept that holds millions of Jehovah's Witnesses captive by controlling how they think and act without them realizing it.)
Frank: So, we'll petition Jehovah, Skeet do you want to lead us in prayer?
Skeet: Almighty and Most Sovereign Jehovah God, we come before you and ask for your direction on our study as we as we want to learn about you and do your will and also make your heart rejoice. We wanna ask you for forgiveness for times we fall short because we wanna repent and uhm.... in Jesus name, Amen.
Frank & Chris: Amen.
Frank: Okay so, God wants you to know who he is, so you want to read paragraph 14, Chris?
Chris: Yeah,
If you want someone to get to know you, what might you do? Would you not tell the person your name? Does God have a name? Many religions answer that his name is “God” or “Lord,” but those are not personal names. They are titles, just as “king” and “president” are titles. The Bible teaches that God has many titles. “God” and “Lord” are among them. However, the Bible also teaches that God has a personal name: Jehovah. Psalm 83:18 says: “You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.” If your Bible translation does not contain that name, you may want to consult the Appendix on pages 195-7 of this book to learn why that is so. The truth is that God’s name appears thousands of times in ancient Bible manuscripts. So Jehovah wants you to know his name and to use it. In a sense, he is using the Bible to introduce himself to you.
Frank: Yes. So paragraph 14, What is God's name and why should we use it.
Chris: Now this is one, and I don't know if you saw it on the screen, but I was actually doing a little research before you got here. I know in this book its always referring to God as Jehovah...
Frank: Right,
Chris: Uhm, and I was actually searching for "Jehovah" in different versions of the bible... So let me ask you, where did "Jehovah" come from?
Frank: Uhm... In the... Original Hebrew scriptures
Chris: In the original Hebrew scriptures?
Frank: Yeah, it, the tetragrammaton.
Chris: Okay, you're talking about the "YHWH"?
Frank: Right. Yeah. And then the English version of that is "Jehovah"
Chris: Alright, but isn't that Yahweh (pronounced Yah'-way)?
Frank: Yeah, Yeah, Yahweh in the Hebrew, but the English version of that...
Chris: Yeah but if His name is Yahweh, and His name was written YHWH in Hebrew, why are we saying Jehovah instead of Yahweh?
Frank: Well this is the English version of that. Like the Greek and the Hebrew is Yahweh.
Chris: Yeah but even if I lived in France wouldn't they call me Chris because that's my name. They wouldn't try to call me a French version of Chris, right?
Frank: Okay, let's look back here and I think you, we'll get a little more on that, let's look at page 195-197.
Chris: Okay.
Frank: The Divine Name -- It's Use and Its Meaning. You want to read the first paragraph? and we'll just take turns?
Chris:
IN YOUR copy of the Bible, how is Psalm 83:18 translated? The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures renders this verse: “That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.” A number of other Bible translations give similar renderings. However, many translations leave out the name Jehovah, replacing it with such titles as “Lord” or “Eternal.” What belongs in this verse? A title or the name Jehovah?
And by the way, after y'all left I went online and got the NWT so that I can compare the versions using the software.
Frank: Uhm hmm. Okay, and what does the King James Version of that verse help you to appreciate.
Chris: Well in the King James Version it says Jehovah, but when I click on the Hebrew text underlying the King James Version I see the letters "YHWH". So what it tells me is that the translators of the KJV wrote "J-E-H-O-V-A-H" instead of YHWH or as in other places, "LORD" or "GOD".
Frank: Okay, well let's go on through this so that we can see if we can get a little more.
Chris: The other thing to note about the King James Version is that it only uses the word "Jehovah" four times. Even in other renderings of that Hebrew word, it's still not Jehovah.
Frank: And here's the thing. Back then they didn't use vowels.
Chris: Right.
Frank: Just like today we may use the word "building" we use the letters "bldg" to abbreviate it. And this is what they were doing there instead... they were leaving the vowels out and it was understood, but this is something, we really don't know what vowels went in there, so then we see they added the "O" and the "E" and the "A"...
Chris: So what about the "J"? I mean, why not "Y"?
Frank: (chuckles)
Chris: I mean why not... Alright, granted, the vowels were'nt present, but why not use the consonants that you have instead of just making up stuff? And this is one reason why I really started studying the bible, because I would read a certain passage in one translation and then in another translation, and even in an interlinear... I know a lot of translations have a certain theological bent based on the people who were doing the translating, whether they were Methodist, or Presbyterian or whatever, they kind of put their own philosophy into the translation, so a lot of times, I end up having to go back to the original Hebrew to make sure I can see what was actually written. But I don't read Hebrew, but I can tell whether to Hebrew words are the same or not. So, my main question would be, why such a huge emphasis on "Jehovah" and not "Yahweh"?
Frank: Well I understand what you're saying and this is important in our worship, because Jesus prayed to his father...
Chris: But Jesus always called him "Father".
Frank: Yeah. Yeah, but he said, "I've made your name known". Father is not a name. He say, "I made your name known to the men that you gave me out of the world. They're no part of the world just like I am no part of the world".
Chris: Alright, so are you saying that Jesus called him "Jehovah"?
Frank: Well, he made His name known to his followers.
Chris: But surely Jesus said His name at some point or another, right?
Frank: Yeah, It uh, it uh, He made His name known to His apostles and disciples.
Chris: Okay so what verse is that, "He made His name known"?
Skeet: John 17:6
We all silently read the following translations of John 17:6 on the screen...
““I have revealed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They belonged to you, and you gave them to me, and they have obeyed your word.” —John 17:6 NET
““I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.” —John 17:6 NWT
“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.” —John 17:6 KJV
“I have manifested Your Name [I have revealed Your very Self, Your real Self] to the people whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have obeyed and kept Your word.” —John 17:6 AMP
Note: The understanding that I gather from different readings of this passage is not that Jesus revealed that God's real name was Jehovah, but that through Jesus word, actions, and teachings, he gave the disciples a good understanding of what Father God was all about. Thus, whatever we saw Jesus say and do, we can see that this would be how God wanted us to respond to troubles, issues, and problems.
Frank: So it's important in our worship and Jehovah God is pleased with that name that we're using.
Chris: You say he's pleased with that name, where does it say that?
Frank: No... I'm, I'm, I'm saying He's pleased with it because otherwise...
Chris: I know you're saying it, but is there scripture to back that up, that He's pleased with that name Jehovah and he He wants us to call Him Jehovah? Because, like I've told you before, if it's in there I wanna do it.
Frank: Well you can be comfortable. And I understand where you're coming from and that's good. I like the way you're doing...
Chris: But see, I'm comfortable with "Lord" because you can go down any street in this neighborhood and say, "My Lord"...
Frank: And who are you referring to? Just say right now, someone was to keep calling you, "man".
Chris: But see, Muslims don't call their god "Lord". They don't even call their god "God". When I say "God" and when I say "my Lord" everybody knows who I'm talking about.
Frank: No. Everybody wouldn't, but Jehovah, He would know who you're talking about, because he's the one who reads hearts. Okay.
Chris: But you're saying that God is more pleased with "Jehovah" than He is with "Yahweh" or "Lord".
Frank: He's pleased with that name, but as far as who'd calling him,
Chris: But that's not in the bible...
Frank: Well let's finish reading this....
Chris: Okay, let's stay on track here instead of getting bogged down...
Frank: And I think it would give you a little more insight.
This verse speaks about a name. In the original Hebrew in which much of the Bible was written, a unique personal name appears here. It is spelled יהוה (YHWH) in Hebrew letters. In English, the common rendering of that name is “Jehovah.” Does that name occur in only one Bible verse? No. It appears in the original text of the Hebrew Scriptures nearly 7,000 times!
NOTE: YHWH is found exactly 6520 times across 5,524 verses in the canon of scripture.
Chris: Now this book is saying that the common rendering is "Jehovah", but it's not based what we've just seen in a lot of different translations. So how does this book make the claim that "Jehovah" is the common rendering, when it is not. And nowhere, except in the New World Translation is it common.
Frank: Okay, Well...
Chris: And I've even looked in Encyclopedias and Dictionaries and a lot of them say that "Jehovah" is the incorrect rendering. But I don't take my cues from the encyclopedia and the dictionary. I like to let scripture interpret scripture.
Frank: Well, one thing, the reason this has been left out of the bible, that name, just think about the opposition that we have. Once upon a time all of these different places where Jehovah is rendered in the King James Version... I took my wife to Savannah and we got off on Aberconn and went into a large bookstore there in that little plaza, and I wanted a King James Version, because a lot of people that you talk to don't want to talk about anything but the King James Version... And I wanted to have one in my bag so that I can pull it out, but the thing about it: I looked through all the King James Versions and I found maybe one or two with Jehovah in it. So why is it being taken out? Well, why is this world in the predicament it's in? Satan is doing everything he possibly can to get us away from worshipping Jehovah God in the way that He wants to be worshipped. And if Satan could destroy this (holding up his pocket version of the New World Translation), he would. This is why in this, this New World Translation, the information that was taken out, has been put back in.
Chris: Alright, and I hear you say that, but why if the KJV substituted "Lord" for "YHWH" why didn't [translators of] the NWT go back and say, "We're going to go back and put in "YHWH" instead of putting in Jehovah, because on your point, if satan can get us away from that name, he would. For instance, I ran across something called the Sacred Names bible... like I told you, I want to know what did it say originally so I can understand it for myself. What this bible [Sacred Names Version] attempts to do is to put back in the sacred names of the bible, even here it reads "YHVH". So I'm wondering why you're using one wrong name or title for another, and I don't get that.
Frank: Well here's the thing. In the English rendition of that, it would be "JHVH".
Chris: What changes a "Y" into a "J"?
Frank: The English rendition of that.
Chris: So who decided that, I guess is the question I need to ask?... Because that's not natural. In other words, if I travelled over to India right now and met someone and saw his name, I would try to pronounce it the way I saw it and not just start substituting letters...
Even with other nationalities, they may not say their names the way that I see them. I may see those Arabic letters and try to pronounce them the way that I learned to put letters together... in other words I would try to pronounce it the way that it's presented. And what I'm saying is that in the Hebrew bible, what's presented is "Y-H-W-H". I don't know how it was pronounced, but the way I see it is "Yahweh". I'm saying that what the NWT is doing is taking what's presented in the Hebrew and adding something else in there.
Frank: So you think we should be using Hebrew names instead of the English renderings?
Chris: I mean, that would be more correct than just making up stuff.
Frank: (chuckles) You know, one thing that I have found out, and I'll go and do some more research to whether it's other than...
Chris: Well do you ever use "Elohim" or any of the other names of God?
Frank: No.. No...
Chris: Why not?
Frank: One of the things, I'm convinced that this is the organization that Jehovah God is using. He has a faithful and discreet slave class here on earth that He's using that's uhm, Jehovah God, through His Son Jesus Christ and this faithful and discreet slave class, which this is the group that's going to be in heaven ruling with Christ. This is a remnant here on earth and this is the one that comes out with the literature... Jehovah God's spirit is working among them and as they get this information, they put it out and give it to us and this is the closest, in this system of things, and the system of things to come, this is the closest that you're going to get to Jehovah. It's through the channel that He's using....
Chris: So you're saying the organization is the channel that He's using?
Frank: Yeah, the faithful and discreet slave class that brought out... It says, "Who is the faithful and discreet slave that Jehovah God is using to give the food at the proper time?" This is the channel... It's no organization like this on the face of the earth...
Chris: I agree with that... So how long have you been with the organization.
Frank: 1984.
Chris: Now were you involved in any other ministries before that?
Frank: Yeah, Baptist. I was a Baptist, but I really never learned or applied anything when I was there. I was just spinnin' my wheels going no where.
Chris and Frank: (chuckling)
Chris: Just going to church every Sunday just to be going...
Frank: But this has really impressed me. I can see Jehovah God's spirit working in the organization and what impressed me so much about the organization... I looked at seed... In satan's organization, if someone dislike you, they could make it hard for you and throw you out or do whatever they want to ya know, but in Jehovah's organization, if somebody's trying to stop you from worshiping Jehovah, he can be moved out of the way! I mean completely! Yeah, I've seen that Jehovah God's organization is nothing to play with. It convinced me over and over again. I've experienced things, I've seen things, I could stand on the mountain top and tell the world that this is the organization that Jehovah God is using day in and day out. So when I see something that comes down from the faithful and discreet slave class... ....and we're not naive ya know. I'd say that we're the most educated people on the face of this earth when it comes to God's word. And I don't go questioning a whole bunch of things. I go and look up references, but if it comes from the slave class that Jehovah God is using, I'm okay. But still, I do research, for times when someone has questions, or give them as much information as I can on it.
Chris: And I do the same. I don't like giving people information that I don't know nothing about. I don't like to "darken counsel with words without knowledge" [a reference to Job: 38:2]
Frank: Well, One of things that I'm comfortable with this... and if there was any type of misleadings, I would be..., but I tell people that if you can show me, on the face of this earth, an organization that Jehovah God is using more-so than this organization, I'm all ears, but I never hear anything. Because satan has got his hand in the majority of the organizations around the world. He's manipulating things, he keep transforming himself into an angel of light and he's putting.... ...the demons, when hear Jehovah's name, they shutter. They shutter with that name, Chris.
Chris: Which name? [I have to admit, I wasn't really listening while he was talking as I was clicking away on my computer trying to research the use of "Jehovah" in other versions of the bible]
Frank: Jehovah.
Chris: They shutter at the name of Jehovah?
Frank: They
SHUTTER!
Chris: I thought they shuttered at the name of Jesus? or Yeshua? I mean, that's what's in the bible?
Frank: Well, Jesus is uhm... I'd say Jehovah's right hand man is his son. In fact look at Matthew 28:18.
Chris: Hold on real quick, I wanted do this too, while I'm thinking about it.
[We're all looking at the details about the use of "YHWH" using Accordance Bible Software]
God = 4
H3068 Yhwh yhwh = 4
he = 1
H3068 Yhwh yhwh = 1
JEHOVAH = 4
H3068 Yhwh yhwh = 4
Lord = 6403
H0136 ’Adonay ’adonai (variant) = 6403
H3068 Yhwh yhwh (variant)
Lord’s = 108
H3068 Yhwh yhwh = 108
And we also look at an article from the Thematic Study Bible on the Titles of God:
1205
God, titles and names of
These reflect the great and varied aspects of God’s being and character. They are particularly used by the psalmists to speak of God as a source of strength, security, blessing and hope.
• Titles which denote God’s greatness
God Almighty Ge 17:1 This was the special name by which God revealed himself to the patriarchs. The Hebrew is “El-Shaddai” possibly meaning “God the mountain,” emphasizing God’s might. See also Ge 28:3; 48:3; Ex 6:3; Ru 1:20-21; Job 5:17 “Almighty” is the favorite divine title in the book of Job: Job 6:4; 37:23; Ps 91:1; Rev 16:14; 19:15
God Most High Ge 14:18-20 The Hebrew “El-Elyon” denotes the supremacy and sovereignty of God. See also Ge 14:22; Dt 32:8; 2Sa 22:14 pp Ps 18:13; Ps 9:2; 21:7; 46:4; 47:2; 78:35; 97:9; Isa 14:14; Da 3:26 Jesus Christ as the Son of the Most High: Mk 5:7 pp Lk 8:28; Lk 1:32-35; Lk 6:35; Ac 16:17
The Eternal God Ge 21:33 The Hebrew “El-Olam” only occurs in this verse. See also Dt 33:27; Ro 16:26
The Ancient of Days Da 7:9, 13-22
The Mighty One Lk 1:49 See also Jos 22:22; Ps 50:1; 132:2-5; Isa 1:24; 49:26; 60:16; Mk 14:62
The living God Ps 84:2; Da 6:26-27 See also Dt 5:26; Jos 3:10; 1Sa 17:26-36; 2Ki 19:16 pp Isa 37:17; Ps 42:2; Jer 10:10; Mt 16:16; Ac 14:15; Heb 10:31
The Holy One of Israel Isa 12:6 “the Holy One of Israel” is a favorite divine title in the book of Isaiah. See also 2Ki 19:22 pp Isa 37:23; Ps 71:22; 78:41; 89:18; Isa 30:12-15; 41:14; 45:11; 55:5; 60:9
The LORD Ge 4:26; Ex 6:2 See also Ex 3:15; 34:5-7
• Titles which refer to God as LORD
Dt 10:17; 28:10; 1Ki 2:3; Ps 146:10; Jer 14:9; Da 9:14
The Lord God Rev 1:8; 22:5
The LORD God Almighty Ps 89:8 See also Ps 80:4; Jer 5:14; 15:16; Hos 12:5; Am 4:13
The LORD Most High Ps 7:17 See also Ps 47:2; 97:9
The Sovereign LORD 2Sa 7:28 See also Dt 9:26; Jos 7:7; Isa 25:8; Jer 32:17; Am 7:2
• Titles referring to God as the source of light
2Sa 22:29; Ps 27:1; 84:11 the sun; Isa 10:17 the Light of Israel; Mic 7:8; Jas 1:17 the Father of the heavenly lights
• Titles referring to God as the source of strength
Ps 59:9 See also Ex 15:2; Ps 18:1; 22:19; 28:7; 46:1; 59:17; 81:1; Isa 12:2
• Titles referring to God as the source of security
A shield Ge 15:1 See also Dt 33:29; 2Sa 22:3 pp Ps 18:2; 2Sa 22:31 pp Ps 18:30; Ps 28:7; 84:11; 115:9; Pr 2:7; 30:5
A refuge Ps 46:1 See also Ps 9:9; 61:3; 91:2-9; 119:114; 142:5; Jer 16:19; Joel 3:16; Na 1:7
A hiding place Ps 32:7
A fortress 2Sa 22:2 pp Ps 18:2; Ps 31:3; 62:2-6; 91:2; 144:2; Isa 17:10; Jer 16:19
A stronghold 2Sa 22:3 pp Ps 18:2; Ps 9:9; 27:1; 37:39; 43:2; 144:2; Joel 3:16
A defender Dt 10:18; Ps 68:5; Pr 23:11
A Rock Ge 49:24; Dt 32:4; Ps 19:14; Isa 26:4
• Titles referring to God as the source of provision
Ge 22:14; La 3:24 See also Ge 22:8; Ps 73:26; 119:57; 142:5; Jer 10:16; 51:19
• Titles referring to God as the source of hope
Jer 14:8 See also Jer 17:13; 50:7
• Titles referring to God as the source of peace
Ro 15:33 See also Jdg 6:24; Ro 16:20; 2Co 13:11; Php 4:9; 1Th 5:23; 2Th 3:16; Heb 13:20
• Titles referring to God as the source of comfort
Jer 8:18; 2Co 1:3
• Titles referring to God as the source of grace
Ex 34:6; Ne 9:31; Ps 86:15; Jnh 4:2; 1Pe 5:10
• Titles referring to God as the source of love
Ps 59:10-17; 144:2; 2Co 13:11; 1Jn 4:7-16
• God as shepherd
Ps 23:1 See also Ge 48:15; 49:24; Ps 80:1
• The true God
2Ch 15:3; Jer 10:10; Jn 17:3; 1Jn 5:20
Chris: I don’t want to bore y'all with all of this
Frank: No.. No.. You’re not...
Chris: You know, if his only personal name is Jehovah and that’s the name that pleases him, I want to call him Jehovah...
Frank: You’re not going wrong...
Chris: But at this time, I can’t be sure...
Frank: I can be sure for ya...
Chris: Well I appreciate that
(everyone chuckles)
Chris: I just need to be sure for myself... Cuz I’ll be the one standing before him, right behind Jesus... (Don't get it twisted, I'm sure, but I don't ever want to come off as Mr. Know it all and end up shutting him down and he never comes back to continue our dialog, develop a friendship, and possibly have the opportunity to lead him to his true rights and authority in Christ Jesus)
Frank: I tell you something else that you can do, if you uhm...
Chris: Cuz, I see Yahweh and I’m down with Yahweh...
Frank: Yeah...
(everyone chuckles)
Chris: You wanted to look at Matt 28:18?
Frank: Yeah, and just think about what Jesus said right there...
We all read the verses silently on the screen:
“Then Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”” —Matthew 28:18–20 NET
Frank; And just ponder over that when Jesus said this.. He done did everything his father assigned him to do...
Chris: Yeah, this is the verse I was trying to remember last week. This is how I got off on the tangent that... Well, let me just read it.. And I’ll read it out of your version...
“And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,” —Matthew 28:18–19 NWT
Frank: And it goes on to say ya know, in the name of Jesus, ya know, every knee shall bend in heaven and on earth, and that’s why I say that he’s Jehovah God’s right hand man and son. So he has the authority... there in Verse 18...
Chris: Yeah but, here is what I, and I thought you said as well. Satan is real, satan does have control over things in this earth, and he does blind eyes. So what I’m trying to make sure that I don’t do is get caught up in substituting what’s written. For instance, if the scripture says “Every knee shall bow in the name of Jesus”, well then, that’s the name I need to know and use. I need to know that name, because obviously there’s some power in there, because the bible says it....
Frank: And look who gave it to him... One of the things to keep in mind is what Jesus said. He had all of this authority and power given to him, but what did he teach his followers on how to pray and who to pray to? He say, “to my father”, see. We got to go through him to get to the Father...
Chris: And that’s a good point. When Jesus was here on the earth, he was a Jew and obviously had access to the Hebrew scriptures, He and his followers. So what did they call Him. Are you saying they called him Jehovah?
Frank: Who? Jesus?
Chris: Jesus and his followers?
Frank: No.
Chris: Because the way I pray, I don’t call him Yahweh or Jehovah. I say “Father God”. Because he’s my Father.
Frank: Almighty. He is the almighty. And Jehovah differentiates him from any other God.
Chris: You know that’s a good point and when you keep saying that, who you’re talking about is differentiating him from who I’m talking about.
Frank: Uhm hmm. (slight nervous chuckle)
Chris: Just like when I’m talking to Muslims and they say Allah is his name. So I say, “Well that person you’re talking about is different from the person I’m talking about”... And I don’t want to get into that, but I’m saying that according to what I’m reading, he’s Father, Yahweh, Elohim.
Frank: So you can’t except the English rendition of the Hebrew word?
Chris: Naw... not if it’s wrong... (Frank and Chris chuckles)
Frank: If it’s coming from the faithful and discreet slave class, it’s not wrong.
Chris: So what are you talking about, “If it’s coming from the faithful and discreet slave class, it’s not wrong.”?
Frank: Yeah, the channel that Jehovah God is using to educate us about His will and purpose, it’s not wrong... no...
Chris: So you’re saying that this faithful and discreet slave class? What?... So you’re saying whatever they say, that’s it?
Frank: Well it’s coming from Jehovah...
Chris: Because Catholics say the same thing about the Pope and the Pope has changed so many times it’s not even funny.
Frank: Yeah, You’re right. You’re right.
Chris: So I guess.. I don’t know what you’re talking about.. “the Faithful and Discreet slave.” So you’re saying the faithful and discreet slave is here on earth now...
Frank: It’s a remnant of the ones, they in heaven with Christ. And they’re the governing body.
Chris: And you’re saying whatever they say goes and so, are these men like the Pope?
Frank: Nooooooooo. You wouldn’t even know ‘em. If one of them was to come in here you wouldn’t know it because we call each other brother regardless of the... we don’t go with titles and all of that.
Chris: Just like I call Yahweh, Father... (I admit that I said it in a snarky condescending tone)
Frank: Well, I wouldn’t say that... They don’t elevate themselves with Jehovah.... we don’t go there... In fact we’re afraid to...
Chris: Okay, what scripture are we looking for here....
Frank: Matthew 24:45-47
““Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” —Matthew 24:45–47 NWT
Chris: So let me go back up here and see what we’re talking about. I just want to get this in context. He’s talking about end times... So this is where the disciples are asking about the end and how they will know when the end will come.
Frank: Well it starts off with verse 3 asking him what will be the end of this system of things, the conclusion of things, and he went on and told them certain things that would take place.
“While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU;” —Matthew 24:3–4 NWT
Chris: Oh yeah this good here, because whenever I see Jesus saying something, I really want to pay attention to it. Let me read it here out of the Amplified Bible since it’s here in red...
“Jesus answered them, Be careful that no one misleads you [deceiving you and leading you into error].” —Matthew 24:4 AMP
And that’s where I am right here. I want to be real careful and take heed what I hear.
Frank: One of the things, I can understand where you’re coming from. But this is the last thing I worry about. Because, I...
Chris: I know for YOU. I’m not trying to convince you of anything. I’m trying to be fully persuaded in my own mind [Rom 14:5]
Frank: I can understand that, And that’s good, that’s good...
Chris: Because it goes on to say:
“For many will come in (on the strength of) My name [appropriating the name which belongs to Me], saying, I am the Christ (the Messiah), and they will lead many astray.” —Matthew 24:5 AMP
Frank: I was telling him... He didn’t remember... How old are you Skeet?
Skeet: 31
Frank: 31, I don’t think you were born then when Jim Jones led that group down there in Guyana. I was telling him about that just this evening. But I told him had he come to Brunswick, he would have gotten a whole lot of other ones to follow him. And that let’s you know that we shouldn’t be following a man!
(Note: It should be noted that Skeet’s posture and demeanor has changed a lot from the time we got started. He was sitting up erect with an engaging posture, until he saw me question Franks claims from the bible. Now he’s sunk back into the sofa with his face hidden behind Frank so much now that I can’t even see his face. Now grant it, he’s probably just bored and tired, but I can tell when I talk to him privately later on that he’s having doubts...)
Frank: But I know exactly what you’re saying. We’re supposed to be like the Bereans. When the Apostle Paul would go there and he preached. And when he’d leave, they’d go and look at the scriptures to see if what he was saying was true ya know... But one thing I like about Jehovah’s organization, it’s an open book. We don’t have anything to hide.
Chris: (I’m continuing to read the context of the previous scripture)...
““Therefore stay alert, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have been alert and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
“Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom the master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves their food at the proper time?” —Matthew 24:42–45 NET
To me it sounds like he’s talking about those leaders and overseers that he’s called, appointed and anointed.
Frank: Yeah. These are the ones that are in Revelation 14:1, the 144,000. It’s a little remnant on earth, but the majority of them are in heaven right now with Christ. This group was started being selected in Pentecost of 33CE when Holy Spirit was poured out on the 120 in the upper room and they came out and began to, when they got filled with Holy Spirit, and they [started] speaking and everyone from all these nations around heard them speaking in their own language. This was powerful.
Chris: This is when they were speaking in tongues right?
Frank: Yeah. uhm-hmm. And each one there from their own lands, heard other ones speaking in their native tongue. Yeah, that was powerful. But this is the group that’s spearheading the preaching work and we can see how they’re speeding up the work right now. Because in the headquarters, they had a lot of workers there, and now they’re sending them out into the field to speed up the preaching work. Because we can see that Jehovah is going to bring this system to an end. It’s so clear from what we’re being taught that we can see... we’re watching for different things. And we can see that this system of things is playing right in line to what we've been taught. We can see certain things right now that's going to trigger the great tribulation that's coming up for mankind, and it's so simple. This is what this study will bring out to you. You'll be able to see things that you thought were not there that will come out and be clear to you.
Let's finish this little part here and see what we get out of this...
Chris: Well, we left off on paragraph two, and it's bringing up a question that I had that if YHWH was in there over 7000 times, why would we go in and change it to Jehovah.
How important is God’s name? Consider the model prayer that Jesus Christ gave. It begins this way: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.” (Matthew 6:9) Later, Jesus prayed to God: “Father, glorify your name.” In response, God spoke from heaven, saying: “I both glorified it and will glorify it again.” (John 12:28) Clearly, God’s name is of the utmost importance. Why, then, have some translators left this name out of their translations of the Bible and replaced it with titles?
I agree with the last part of that paragraph, because even the translators or the New World Translation is doing what this book is accusing translators of other bible versions of doing. I still don't understand why you guys find it so important to replace YHWH with Jehovah. And I know you told me about the "faithful and discreet slave", but I know how to read and I can see, but I can't place more importance on "Jehovah", "Yahweh", etc more than Jesus did -- probably because Jesus wanted us to call him "Father", and relate to God in a more personal way than just as a title or even "friend" as your book tries to convey. I believe we can be friends of God for sure, but he wants us to be more than just friends.
If Jesus came on this earth and he example to follow, because whenever I have a doubt about something, I just look to see what Jesus did...
Frank: Yes, he set a fine example for us to follow...
Chris: He did. He did. However, even over the issue of whether his name is Jehovah or whether his name is Yahweh, for me to stay safe, I'm going to do what Jesus did, and just call him my Father. He's my Father. My Father God.
Frank: Yeah as long as you got him being the Almighty. Ya know. None higher than he is, and you might come to appreciate that name Jehovah. I've seen that name work. Like I said the demons, they shutter.
Chris: Sure, but the bible doesn't say that demons shutter at the name of Jehovah. The bible says that demons tremble and the name of Jesus.
Frank: That name too. In fact when Jesus sent...
Chris: I guess what I'm hearing you say is that the name Jesus isn't as powerful as the name Jehovah.
Frank: Well, do you think it would be?
Chris: If the bible says it, yes...
Frank: You think the son's name would be as powerful as the father's name?
Chris: If the father says it is, then it is. He said, "I've given you a name that is above every name".
Frank: Yeah... Not His. It's not above His name.
Chris: Okay.
Frank: In heaven and on earth, but Jehovah God is above all of that.
Chris: Well lets look at the verse. Let me find it here...
“Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:” —Philippians 2:9 KJV
Frank: Yeah, "GIVEN him a name". So the one that gives you something, you wouldn't be, and Jesus never did. Jesus said the Father is greater than he was.
Chris: Well in the mouth of two or three witnesses every truth is established, so let's look at another text...
“This power he exercised in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms far above every rule and authority and power and dominion and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.” —Ephesians 1:20–21 NET
Chris: Now the "he" there is referring to God right?
Frank: Uhm-hmm
Chris: Well it seems to me that He - God - placed Jesus on his right hand, placed him far above every rule and authority and power, and placed him above every name that is named, not only in this age, but the one to come. So God did that, right?
Frank: Uhm-hmm, Yeah. The Father. The Father did that for his son.
Chris: But he place Jesus, he's talking about Jesus right?
Frank: Yeah, his son.
Chris: So what I'm reading here is that God placed Jesus above every name that is named. Isn't that right?
Frank: Yeah, in heaven and on earth.
Chris: So wouldn't the name "Jesus" be above the name "Jehovah".
Frank: Jehovah!? Aww.. Come on now... Naw... Come on now... (chuckling)
Chris: It just said above every name that is named. Is Jehovah a name that has been named? You guys keep naming him Jehovah.
Frank: No... there's so much difference between Jehovah and his son Jesus.
Chris: Yes I know that God and Jesus are different, I know they are a two distinct persons.
Frank: Because Jehovah God never had a beginning and never will He have an ending. And Jesus HAD a beginning.
Chris: Where does it say that at?
Frank: Hmm?
Chris: Where does it say that Jesus had a beginning?
Frank: Look at Proverbs 8. Let's look at verse 22.
Chris: “The LORD created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.” —Proverbs 8:22 NET
Is that Solomon talking there?
Frank: No, No, that's Wisdom being personified in Jesus. Yeah. Read on down there and you'll see...
Chris: So you say we're talking about Wisdom, right?
Frank: Yeah, which is Jesus.
Chris: Where do you get that from?
Frank: Just go on and read it, you'll see what I'm talking about.
Chris: (continues to read)
“From eternity I was appointed, from the beginning, from before the world existed. When there were no deep oceans I was born, when there were no springs overflowing with water; before the mountains were set in place– before the hills–I was born, before he made the earth and its fields, or the beginning of the dust of the world. When he established the heavens, I was there; when he marked out the horizon over the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above, when the fountains of the deep grew strong, when he gave the sea his decree that the waters should not pass over his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him as a master craftsman, and I was his delight day by day, rejoicing before him at all times, rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth, and delighting in its people. “So now, children, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction so that you may be wise, and do not neglect it. Blessed is the one who listens to me, watching at my doors day by day, waiting beside my doorway. For the one who finds me finds life and receives favor from the LORD. But the one who does not find me brings harm to himself; all who hate me love death.”” —Proverbs 8:23–36 NET
Frank: So this helps you to appreciate how Jesus was... What I like about that, how he was fond of the sons of men and him being a master worker under his father. And you know what a master worker is, you have like a master mechanic, a master electrician, they're working under someone. So Jehovah God created his son Jesus Christ first and then his son is a master worker, creating every other thing, See.
Skeet: (whispering) Colossians 1:15-16.
Frank: Yeah, Colossians 1:15-16.
Chris: See I'm still here at proverbs, I'm looking at Proverbs 8:1.
“Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice? At the top of the elevated places along the way, at the intersection of the paths she takes her stand;” —Proverbs 8:1–2 NET
See I agree that this passage is talking about wisdom and I believe that Wisdom was there at the beginning according to this passage. But wisdom is not Jesus and Jesus is not wisdom. I'm not making that connection.
Frank: Yeah, well wisdom...
Chris: Jesus is wise,
Frank: Yeah, Yeah, this is where the wisdom is personified and it's speaking about Jesus.
Chris: You're saying it's speaking about Jesus, but I don't see anything in the passage that says it's speaking about Jesus. It clearly says that it's talking about Wisdom.
Frank: You can't see it's speaking about Jesus?
Chris: Not if it's saying wisdom and using "her". Whenever I've seen Wisdom personified, wisdom has a female gender as it does in this passage. And whenever the bible speaks of Jesus, it gives Jesus a male gender. Right?
Frank: Okay, where do you see "her".
Chris: Well let's see what it says in the New World Translation....
“Does not wisdom keep calling out, and discernment keep giving forth its voice?” —Proverbs 8:1 NWT
Well in you're bible, it doesn't personify wisdom. NWT calls wisdom an "it". But in other versions, Wisdom is personified as a "her". (We're looking at Prov. 8:1 in the NET, KJV, AMP, MSG, NIV, etc.)
Chris: So what was the other verse you wanted to look at?
Skeet: Colossians 1:15-16.
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him—all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers—all things were created through him and for him.” —Colossians 1:15–16 NET
Frank: So this helps you to appreciate how this ties in with that master worker...
Chris: Well, I can't tie it into Proverbs, because that's talking about wisdom. And wisdom is different from Jesus.
Frank: Well you can see Jehovah's wisdom in His son Jesus Christ.
Chris: Well you can see Jehovah's wisdom in the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is still different form Jesus and God.
Frank: You're right. You're right. You'd be surprised how many people don't know that. You're right. You're right about that.
(NOTE: I know that JW's do everything they can to refute a trinitarian point of view and this way I can at least keep them thinking I have "some light", because I know how to separate Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, while they stay the same and in unity. In other words, I can see Holy Spirit being here on earth now, while Jesus is in Heaven, sitting at the right hand of God.)
I continue reading Col 1:15 in context to let God's Word continue to sow seeds of the salvation sermon I know I'm going to have to preach at some point...
“giving thanks to the Father who has qualified you to share in the saints’ inheritance in the light. He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,” —Colossians 1:12–15 NET
Chris: By the way, if something is born is it-- something born is not the same as something created, Right? If my wife births a child, she didn't create it, right?
Frank: (looking at the ceiling pondering my question)
Chris: Something created is something that's made.
Frank: Yeah,
Chris: So what I'm saying is that Jesus wasn't created like Adam was created and formed from the dust of the ground.
Frank: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation...
Chris: the firstborn OVER all creation.
Frank: Well look at the New World Translation there.
Chris: Yeah New World says "the firstborn of all creation".
Frank: Yes. I imagine why it's the most accurate translation.
Chris: Yeah, you keep saying, and I've really looked to see if that is true, but I haven't found anything to support the claim that the NWT translation is the most accurate translation. As a matter of fact, I was wondering why I couldn't find NWT on the Accordance website so that I could add it into my software.
Frank: Well, it's on the internet. I'll see if I can get you that before I leave. Well this guy that wrote that, he wasn't one of Jehovah's Witnesses, now. He did a research on quite a few of the bible translations and this was on Jeopardy.
Chris: I even looked for that too and I couldn't find it on Jeopardy's website, to find out whether that was true or not. But I'll keep looking for it...
Frank: I should have it in my bag out there in the car.
Chris: Because I'd like to see that.
Frank: Alright, let me go out there for a minute...
(While Frank goes out to the car, I get a chance to ask "Skeet" a few questions)
Chris: So how long have you been with Jehovah's Witnesses?
Skeet: A year.
Chris: A year? Okay, did you attend another church or anything before Jehovah's Witnesses?
Skeet: No. Not much no.
Chris: I see JW's around a lot, and I told "Frank" that I admire their tenacity to get out and go door to door, but I didn't know what they were teaching. I'm just one of those guys who like to see it for myself. I used to go to different churches and most people don't know what they're talking about.
Frank comes back in
Frank: Can I use your restroom?
Chris: Sure.
I continue on with "Skeet"
Chris: So, do you live in this area?
Skeet: Yeah.
Chris: So what do you do for a living?
Skeet: Well, I've been down here for a few years, I moved down here from New England - from New Hampshire and I'm right now I'm not working...
Chris: So how do you like all this down south heat?
Skeet: I'm still getting used to it?
Chris: My daughter wants to go to school in Delaware, we we'll be driving her up to Delaware next month. So I look forward to slipping and sliding on the ice.
There's about a good 65 seconds of uncomfortable silence while we're waiting on Frank to come out of the rest room.
Frank: Yeah, I looked at that... They (NWT Translators?) got a lotta critics though. Different ones, you know how when someone brings up something like that (about NWT being the most accurate)...
[he's fumbling through his satchel looking for some papers to show me]
Chris: While you're looking for that though, the other thing that kinda makes me want to stick with what I was saying earlier is this passage that I read here in Joel 2:32
“And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.” —Joel 2:32 KJV
If calling upon the name of the Lord, I shall be delivered, and he gave Jesus a name that's above every name as we read in Ephesians, and Jesus just so happens, came down on earth to die so that we can be delivered from our sins, I think I'd do well to use that name... that name of Jesus...
Frank: Well, one of the things that we need to do is listen to Jesus, and this is what I tell a lot of people, if you say you love Jesus, listen to him. Listen to whom he tells you to pray to. And if he made Jehovah God's name known to the men He gave him out of the world, then we want to use that name.
(Frank hands me a printout of the following article from a Dec. 1st, 2004 edition of the Watchtower about the accuracy of the NWT.)
A “Remarkably Good” Translation
ACCORDING to one count, as many as 55 new English translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were published between 1952 and 1990. Translators’ choices mean that no two read alike. In order to assess the reliability of the translators’ work, Jason BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University, in Flagstaff, Arizona, U.S.A., examined and compared for accuracy eight major translations, including the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses. The result?
While critical of some of its translation choices, BeDuhn called the New World Translation a “remarkably good” translation, “better by far” and “consistently better” than some of the others considered. Overall, concluded BeDuhn, the New World Translation “is one of the most accurate English translations of the New Testament currently available” and “the most accurate of the translations compared.”—Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament.
BeDuhn noted, too, that many translators were subject to pressure “to paraphrase or expand on what the Bible does say in the direction of what modern readers want and need it to say.” On the other hand, the New World Translation is different, observed BeDuhn, because of “the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal, conservative translation of the original expressions of the New Testament writers.”
Chris: Okay, where's that verse where you were saying that we ought to follow Jesus' example?
Frank: One of the ones is Matthew 6:9-10. That's when he was teaching his followers to pray.
Chris: Well in this instance, he told his followers to pray "Our Father". What about the verse where you said that Jesus said that he made his name known?
Frank: Oh, okay, what scripture was that Skeet?
Skeet: Uhm, John 17:5-6
[I pull the scripture up on the screen]
“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.” —John 17:5–7 KJV
Chris: Jesus is saying that he made his name known to the men that God gave him out of the world, meaning that he's actually talking about those 11 disciples, since at this time, Judas had killed himself. So Jesus is explaining that they know his name because they've heard the Word and done it. So Jesus... I continue reading
““I have revealed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They belonged to you, and you gave them to me, and they have obeyed your word. Now they understand that everything you have given me comes from you, because I have given them the words you have given me. They accepted them and really understand that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I am praying on behalf of them. I am not praying on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those you have given me, because they belong to you. Everything I have belongs to you, and everything you have belongs to me, and I have been glorified by them.” —John 17:6–10 NET
Frank: And what did Jesus tell them to do? He sent them forth into the world.
Chris: But to make this be about the name Jehovah, is an error. He's telling God that he revealed who God was to these 11 guys. He's telling God, I've told them everything about You, about Us, about your plan to redeem mankind...
Frank: Right, and 11 disciples are close to him and this is the channel that He's using to educate people all over the world that same group that his apostles were a part of.
Chris: Well you're going to have to show me a scripture about the "organization" because....
Frank: Well you just read it Matthew 25:45-47
Chris: So you're saying that this John 17:6 and that Matthew 25:45 are the same thing.
Frank: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. His apostles. They were in the upper room when the holy spirit was poured out. That began the Christian congregation right there at Pentecost 33CE. That was the beginning of the Christian congregation. And that's when that number that's going to be ruling with Christ in Heaven, that's when that number started to be gathered. That total number is 144,000.
Chris: Yeah, I keep hearing you say that too
Frank: Yeah, Revelation 14:1
“And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.” —Revelation 14:1 NWT
Chris: Now right here, why does it say, I saw 144,000 having his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. Why didn't it say, "His Father's name, and then His name"?
Frank: (smiles and chuckles as if someone poured too much salt on his shut-up sandwich)
Chris: I'm just curious about that... And why would you even need both names, why not just the name of Jehovah and that be sufficient?
Frank: Well, just think about what Jesus said. The only way I'm going to get to God is to go through his son Jesus Christ. If I try to do it any other way, I'm just spinning my wheels and going nowhere. So how does Jehovah God and his son feel about each other. Jesus is not going to separate himself from the Father, and the Father is not separating himself from the son. So why can't we be the same. Nothing can separate us from the love of Jehovah God and his son Jesus Christ.
Chris: You just threw "Jehovah God" in there and it doesn't even say that...
Frank: No, it says it. All over the world.
Chris: You know I may not no a lot of scriptures by heart, but I know that one. It says:
“Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?” —Romans 8:35 KJV
[I'm actually laughing cracking up at the almost robotic way that Jehovah God comes out of Frank's mouth even when talking about Jesus...]
Frank: Jehovah God and Jesus...
Chris: But it doesn't say Jehovah God even in the NWT.
Frank: Look at Romans 8:39
Chris: “nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” —Romans 8:39 NET
Frank: That just tells me there that Jehovah God and Jesus Chris is so close to connecting, we can't approach Jehovah without his son Jesus Christ. And it makes sense when Jehovah God used his Son and his Son was willing to come, because we were lost up until this. We didn't have any hope until this loving God Jehovah made arrangements for his son to come down to this earth and give up his life. A perfect life, for the perfect life that was lost by Adam.
Chris: I agree. Now we left off on page 196... The question was "Why, then, have some translators left this name out of their translations of the Bible and replaced it with titles?" And I said that the NWT seems to fall into that category.
There seem to be two main reasons. First, many claim that the name should not be used because the original way to pronounce it is unknown today. Ancient Hebrew was written without vowels. Therefore, no one today can say for sure exactly how people of Bible times pronounced YHWH. However, should this prevent us from using God’s name? In Bible times, the name Jesus may have been pronounced Yeshua or possibly Yehoshua—no one can say for certain. Yet, people the world over today use different forms of the name Jesus, pronouncing it in the way that is common in their language. They do not hesitate to use the name just because they do not know its first-century pronunciation. Similarly, if you were to travel to a foreign land, you might well find that your own name sounds quite different in another tongue. Hence, uncertainty about the ancient pronunciation of God’s name is no reason for not using it.
Now earlier you said that Jesus revealed God's true name to the 11 disciples, and you said that those 11 disciples are a part of the 144,000 faithful and discreet slaves?
Frank: Yeah, they're a part of that.
Chris: So did Jesus reveal God's true name to them?
Frank: Yeah, but here's the thing. Jesus didn't reveal anything to us, but we have it. And look what...
Chris: Oh, so you're saying that the faithful and discreet slaves may know the real name of God, but they're just not telling anybody.
Frank: Yeeesss... NO, NO.. What I'm saying, Jesus trained his apostles. They went and trained others. That's why Jesus came to earth to not only give up his life for mankind, but to teach mankind about his father. And he trained these ones and they went and trained others. Look to where the apostles went and established congregations. And this is right on down to us today. That same teaching that Jesus...
Chris: But even in the early church they had gnostics and other disciples who lost their way and went and started teaching other things...
Frank: Well you know that Jesus warned his Apostles there that when they would go out the way that false religion was going to really surge. And it did when the Apostles died... You know the Apostles act as a restraint.
Chris: You know, there's a scripture that says try the spirits by the spirit [1John 4:1], do you know what I'm talking about? Because some may ask, "How do I know that this church is right or this way is right and that way is wrong?"
Frank: Okay, I know what you saying. Yeah.
Chris: And this is where I got into telling you the first time that we met, that the Holy Spirit is on the inside of me....
Frank: Well this is something when it comes to Jehovah God's Holy Spirit, He deals with us...
Chris: What I'm getting to as far as the subject we've been covering tonight, "Jehovah" vs "God" vs "Yahweh", I've learned enough to know that the bible can interpret itself and if there is anything anyone is telling me, whether it be a bishop, pope, reverend, etc, I have sense enough to know that, if that's what God is saying, He's going to confirm it in His Word. Because the scripture says that the Lord will confirm his Word with signs following [Matt 1:20]
Frank: I know what you're saying.
Chris: That what I do and what I try to do because if I'm using the bible as a source, and I don't mean a certain version of the bible, because as you can see, I use a lot of different version to help me get to the truth of the underlying Greek and Hebrew, because none of them are 100% accurate. But in the end, the Holy Spirit is going to confirm what's right and and what's wrong...
Frank: Oh yeah, It's doing that now. It's doing that now through Jehovah God's channel. Now we got a loving God and he is not going to want mankind to worship him with spirit and truth and then he hide the truth from 'em. That's why I say that he has an organization on earth today that's educating people all over the world about his will and purpose.
Chris: [with a loving, sincere, kind and sweet tone] And that's great, but tells me that the Holy Spirit will guide me into all truth. He doesn't tell me that Watchtower Bible and Tract Society or Brooklyn, New York will guide me into all truth. He doesn't tell me that the faithful and discreet slave will guide me into all truth.
Frank: Well one of the things that you can look at...
Chris: What I'm getting at is, what's YOUR final authority?
Frank: It's not no coincidence that we came here to you...
Chris: I totally agree with that...
Frank: Yeah, it's no coincidence. I see you reaching out for Jehovah God and he's drawing closer to you.
Chris: Oh yeah, No doubt about it. I told my wife that I love studying the bible... I like digging deep.
Frank: And this is it. If you can find something else out there that Jehovah God is using... This organization...
Chris: See, I'm not looking for an organization, because I've found what I'm looking for. I've found God, I've found his Son Jesus...
Frank: One of the things that you....
Chris: I don't want to back-track. I don't want to go backwards. [I said as I look into Skeet's eyes]
Frank: Yeah, you don't want to do that, but this is what I'm saying. Hook up with his channel. That's all you gotta do... Hook up with his channel, and you think that maybe you've progressed, you'll really shine when you hook up with his organization. Because there's so much encouragement in the knowledge that you've had. Just think about getting out and helping others to preach... going from door to door and getting out. It's a blessing beyond comparison. I hear a lot of the people saying... They had a group of preachers on TV the other day and they were talking about how they could combat the crime and get the young people on the right track, and guess what they said... "Well we need to get away from these four wall and get out and start knocking on doors!" Well, instead of saying that's what we should do, my goodness, Jesus set an example for us years ago, and who's doing it? Ya know. You can tell the tree by the fruit it bears. It's just something to think about.
Let's keep reading this...
Chris: Yeah, I know I keep stopping and I'm sorry y'all...
In Bible times, the name Jesus may have been pronounced Yeshua or possibly Yehoshua—no one can say for certain. Yet, people the world over today use different forms of the name Jesus, pronouncing it in the way that is common in their language. They do not hesitate to use the name just because they do not know its first-century pronunciation. Similarly, if you were to travel to a foreign land, you might well find that your own name sounds quite different in another tongue. Hence, uncertainty about the ancient pronunciation of God’s name is no reason for not using it.
You know, again, it's still double speak because you're admitting the fact that we can't be 100% certain on how to pronounce God's name, to me it seems like something that happens in a lot of churches not in just the Jehovah Witnesses...
Frank: Well, one of the things that I appreciate about Jehovah's Organization is that the truth comes out. When they say it's not sure, well they don't have it, concerning that.
Chris: Well that's my point, if you don't know, there's no need to go and make up something...
Frank: But that name is the English rendition of the Hebrew word and ...
Chris: But who is saying that besides the organization?
Frank: It's coming from the faithful steward that Jehovah God is using...
Chris: So where is he confirming his word on that point?
Frank: Right here, he's confirming it right here (pointing to his WBTS publication "What Does The Bible Really Teach")
Chris: No, not in this book, but in His actual Word. If it's true, he's going to confirm it in His Word, not in a pamphlet that I got on the side and not in some bible study...
Frank: Well I understand. You're not convinced....
Chris: Well I'm convinced that what you're saying is not backed up by scripture. See, I'm telling you, if you show it to me in the Word, you don't have to say anything else, because I've chosen as an act of faith toward God to make this my final authority on matters of life and living. But trust that I'm going to study it out to make sure that it says what men say that it says and that it says it in context, because a lot of times...
Frank: What did Jesus tell Thomas when he was resurrected? Let's look at it.
Chris: What is it, John 20:25?
Frank:
“Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and examine my hands. Extend your hand and put it into my side. Do not continue in your unbelief, but believe.” Thomas replied to him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are the people who have not seen and yet have believed.”” —John 20:27–29 NET
Chris: But he's saying blessed are the people who have not seen the resurrected body of Jesus yet they still believe that he exists and that he died and he rose again, that's what that passage is talking about right?
Frank: Yeah,
Chris: It's not saying blessed are the people who have not seen it in His Word...
Frank: But the thing about is that Thomas he knew Jesus was put to death, and he couldn't believe what the other disciples were saying about Jesus being raised from the dead... "Oh no, unless I see him..." Jesus made a very good point here because the channel that Jehovah... Jehovah God has always used certain people to educate others about his will and purpose. You can think about when Moses, when Jehovah God have him the law, then you can think about Noah. Noah was a preacher of righteousness. And anybody who didn't listen to Noah was destroyed. A lot of them had their own different views and you can come on back to Abraham, and how Joseph was used there in Egypt. And how Jehovah God used Moses. Moses went through something a lot of people who were with Moses went against him. And Moses ripped his garments apart. And as a result of all of them lifting up themselves against Moses when they said, "Why you lifting up yourself above us?" and it was a point with the earth opened up and a lot of them lost their lives. See? Then right on down to Jesus. Jehovah God was using Jesus to educate, well before him was Solomon, and Jesus taught his disciples, Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost 33CE, and this is the same channel that Jehovah God is using today. Not deviating from it, and there are a lot of false channels out there that are misleading people. They're misleading people all over the world. And that's why you are questioning right now, because you see what's going on in the world. And this is big time and time is running out for this old system of things. And Jehovah is going to bring it to an end.
Chris: So let me ask you this, since I'm looking at Exodus 27 where it says:
“You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold guiltless anyone who takes his name in vain.” —Exodus 20:7 NET
Frank: Yeah, in a worthless way. Yeah I've known some people, in fact, I think we would have still had some of the comedians around if they didn't do that. Of all of the things they could talk about -- You lay off of Jehovah God and his son Jesus Christ. You understand what I'm saying? If they want play with something, go on and grab a saber-tooth tiger, ya know or something like that, and grab a wire brush and raise his tail and go to workin' on him with a wire brush or something ya know, you'll have more success doing that than playing around with Jehovah, His name, His son Jesus Christ, yeah... As a matter of fact, it says it right here in this appendix...
A second reason often given for omitting God’s name from the Bible involves a long-standing tradition of the Jews. Many of them hold that God’s name should never be pronounced. This belief is evidently based on a misapplication of a Bible law that states: “You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave the one unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way.”—Exodus 20:7.
This law forbids the misuse of God’s name. But does it forbid the respectful use of his name? Not at all. The writers of the Hebrew Bible (the “Old Testament”) were all faithful men who lived by the Law that God gave to the ancient Israelites. Yet, they made frequent use of God’s name. For instance, they included it in many psalms that were sung out loud by crowds of worshipers. Jehovah God even instructed his worshipers to call upon his name, and faithful ones obeyed. (Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21) Hence, Christians today do not hesitate to use God’s name respectfully, as Jesus surely did.—John 17:26.
Chris: Well, even when I think about my wife, how if I call her out of her name, she'll get mad at me, so you still haven't answered the question of what makes you hold on the the one name of Jehovah, when God clearly has many names and why Yahweh seems to be way more accurate of a translation than the world Jehovah? But you say the reason you don't say Yahweh, is because the faithful and discreet slave hasn't ok'd that name yet.
Frank: They are way ahead of anything that's on the earth.
Chris: So do you realize that there is an Awake publication that came out in Spain in 1995 and in it, they admitted that the most accurate translation is indeed "Yahweh"? I'm going to see if I can find it for you and let you look at it...
Frank: Well I appreciate that...
Chris: Because I've heard you say on a number of occasions how the organization says one thing at the top and the same thing is disseminated to all the other Kingdom Halls all over the world.
Frank: Well Jehovah has his channel of educating his people all over the world, and he's not using a whole bunch. He has an organization. And if we attach ourselves to that organization or if Jehovah allows us to be attached to that organization, we got a good future ahead of us.
Chris: I'm just wondering how it can be said that Yahweh is the most accurate translation in a Spanish language awake magazine over there, but over here it's still "Jehovah"...
Frank: Well as I said, Jehovah is pleased with that name.
Chris: Well you say it all the time, but is it in scripture though? Now what I do see in the bible is that he's please with the name he's placed above every other name.
Skeet: (whispering again) Ezekiel 36:23.
Chris: Let's look at it... (of course this only supports their argument if you read it the NWT)
“I will magnify my great name that has been profaned among the nations, that you have profaned among them. The nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the sovereign LORD, when I magnify myself among you in their sight.” —Ezekiel 36:23 NET
“And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.” —Ezekiel 36:23 KJV
“‘And I shall certainly sanctify my great name, which was being profaned among the nations, which YOU profaned in the midst of them; and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘when I am sanctified among YOU before their eyes.” —Ezekiel 36:23 NWT
So that word is the same word that I've been talking about all night "YHWH".
Frank: Well, Yahweh is an appropriate name, we can't get around that.
Chris: But what happened with the NWT that made your translators put in "Jehovah" all over the place, as opposed to "Yahweh"?
Frank: Well just like it says, it's the English rendition of the Hebrew word.
Chris: But you do realize that in the KJV, the English translation of that Hebrew world was "LORD".
Frank: In some of them...
Chris: No No, I'm talking about in the King James Version. So what I'm seeing that has happened is that the translators of the New World Translation saw the same thing I'm seeing, saw all of this "LORD" business, so instead of correcting it to "YAHWEH", they changed it from "LORD" to "Jehovah".
Frank: Well, like I say, the English rendition of that Word.
Chris: But that argument can be made about the KJV. We could say that "LORD" is the English translation of "YHWH".
Frank: Okay.
Chris: So we left off here...
God himself explained the meaning of his name to his faithful servant Moses. When Moses asked about God’s name, Jehovah replied: “I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be.” (Exodus 3:14) Rotherham’s translation renders those words: “I Will Become whatsoever I please.” So Jehovah can become whatever is needed in order to fulfill his purposes.
So I agree with that, and the King James reads, "I AM THAT I AM" right?
Frank: Yep.
Chris: I just don't see the scripture in the place saying "I AM Jehovah". And what about the other names of God like Jehovah-Elohim, Jehovah-Jireh, Jehovah-Nissi, Jehovah-Shalom?
Frank: Well, these are names of places... In fact, Jehovah-Jireh was the place where Abraham was about to offer up Isaac, and he called that place Jehovah-Jireh....
Chris: Because God provided a sacrifice, so what that scripture is saying, "I AM THAT I AM", God became Yahweh the provider in that case.
Frank: Okay and those other names they were places where they erected things...
Chris: Because in those places, God became their peace or their healer because he became different things in those Jews in those places.
Frank: I won't go against that, no.
Chris: Your book goes on to say...
Suppose that you could become whatever you wanted to become. What would you do for your friends? If one of them became seriously ill, you could become a skilled doctor and perform a cure. If another suffered a financial loss, you could become a wealthy benefactor and come to his rescue. The truth is, though, that you are limited in what you can become. All of us are. As you study the Bible, you will be amazed to see how Jehovah becomes whatever is needed in order to fulfill his promises. And it pleases him to use his power in behalf of those who love him. (2 Chronicles 16:9) These beautiful facets of Jehovah’s personality are lost to those who do not know his name.
Again, I don't totally agree with the statement we are limited to what we can become.
Frank: Yeah, we are limited. Jeremiah 10:23 says its not up to man that's walking to direct his next step. [NWT] We are limited to what we can do...
Chris: Did you know that we could God?
Frank: [as he jumps back in the seat and cocks his head like a puppy] Hmm?!
Chris: [laughs]
Frank: How you mean limit him?
Chris: It's amazing to me to, but let's look at it. It's in here and I'm not making it up...
Frank: If you're saying that we can limit him on what he gonna do for us,...
Chris: This is getting back to one of the first things that popped out Jehovah Witnesses when we first started this bible study. It seems as if JW's downplay the same authority that Jesus said that he had back in Matthew 28, we don't seem to connect that to us as having that same authority.
“Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.” —Psalms 78:41 KJV
Frank: So what in that scripture have you thinking that we can limit Jehovah?
Chris: By turning away from him. In other words, God can want to do something in our lives...
Frank: Oh yeah, I see what you're saying there, but then if we don't work in harmony with his arrangement of things, it's up to Him whether he want to do it or not...
Chris: If God wanted to bless me with a good job right now today, He wanted to give me the job that I wanted for my family today, but I said, I don't want your help, I want to stick with what I got and what I'm learning and this is what I believe, I don't believe that you want be to prosper. You know some people think that God wants them to live a life of poverty. So, what if God needed you and wanted you to become a wealthy benefactor as we read in your book, but because of some teaching that you have about God wanting you to live a life of poverty, you don't think it's His will for you to be healthy, wealthy, and prosperous. So even if God wanted to bless you, He can't, because you've decided that you don't want His help. You can tell God, "I don't want your help", and you've there for limited Almighty God as to what he can do in your life. The God we say can do ANYTHING. Because He's Love, He's given us free will and all of these people that you go around trying to minister to all day. You say that you're going around trying to give them a message of hope, but if they don't want it, they don't want it. They've turned their back on you and shut the door. God is not going to force His way on them.
Frank: Well one of the things that we're going to have to keep in mind is that Jehovah, as we brought earlier, doesn't have to explain anything to us. And another thing. Jehovah God's thinking and his ways is so much higher above ours as the heavens is above the earth, so how could you say your reasoning on a matter could say what Jehovah would or wouldn't do. If his thinking and his way is so much higher than ours, how could you say what he's going to do, and we come up with our little old puny thinking on the matter... I don't whether the Apostle Paul, whether he wanted to go in the direction he was going in when he was persecuting the Christians. But when that light shone from Heaven shone down on him, I think he had some different thinking on the matter.
Chris: But he still had to choose to do what he did. The only question Jesus asked him on the Demascus Road was why was he doing what he was doing, so the question that he could ask us today sitting here is, Why are we doing what we're doing?
Frank: Oh yeah. But one thing that we can think about the bible, in 2Tim 3:16, “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” —2 Timothy 3:16–17 NWT
Chris: And it's so much information in the bible, that without software, I don't know how the early Christians did it...
Frank: Well this is one thing that Jehovah's Organization has narrowed it down to where you can worship Jehovah God in an acceptable way...
Chris: Acceptable to who?
Frank: Him.
Chris: Acceptable to God?
Frank: Yeah this is Jehovah God's channel of educating. It's good for us to do reasearch, there's nothing wrong with that, but to spend too much time on a matter, ya know. Just like you say, you like the name Yahweh, which is a good name, which is Jehovah in the Hebrew scriptures. But channel that God is using has already researched to see that the English rendition of that name is Jehovah. I don't have to spend time going back, doing research because I'm wasting a lot of time, when I can be learning more about Jehovah God, and doing his will. So, the only thing I'm saying is ya know, we don't want a few words to get us hung up. Because He's a loving God Jehovah. I'm 'bout like the Apostle Peter and the Apostle Paul. I'm a bold witness of Jehovah and His Son Jesus Christ. I see his Holy Spirit working through us.
Chris: And in that same light, you just said it again, you said that are a bold witness for Jehovah. That's not what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to be a bold witness for Jesus Christ.
Frank: Well who was Jesus witnessing for? For His father. In fact He instructed His followers, he just directed them to His father, when he would pray, he would always pray to his Father.
Chris: But see, we have no other way except through Jesus Christ.
Frank: [emphatically] RIGHT!
Chris: So what we have to do as Christ-followers, we're supposed to direct people back to Jesus so that they can get access to the Father. Because they can't get to the Father any other way.
Frank: Well that's make sense what you're saying. Because we're directing them to follow Jesus example.
Chris: Because we shouldn't give unbelievers the false impression that they can get to God without Jesus.
Frank: Ain't no way that they can get to Jehovah without going through Jesus. That's known. In fact if anyone tries to go around Jesus they're spinning their wheels and going no where.
Chris: The last part of this page that we're reading continues....
Clearly, the name Jehovah belongs in the Bible. Knowing its meaning and using it freely in our worship are powerful aids in drawing closer to our heavenly Father, Jehovah.
Now something about that is just not sitting right with me...
(Note: After praying about it later, the Holy Spirit reminded me that I don't even call my natural daddy by his first name so why would I hold Father God in such disrespect. My momma and my daddy would have a cow if I called either of them by their first name. The same was true in Jewish culture and Jesus told us to pray, "Our Father".)
Frank: See that asterisk there? For more information on God’s name, its meaning, and reasons why it should be used in worship, see the brochure The Divine Name That Will Endure Forever, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Chris: Well, do you have a copy of that? Because I read ahead to see what we were going to be talking about tonight so that I could prepare myself, but what I believe is what I believe based on God's Word and revelation by the Holy Spirit. Not something I read in a theology or even heard from another preacher somewhere. Even those things I hear have to measure up to the scrutiny of God's Word and His Holy Spirit.
Because I refuse to be deceived. But I do appreciate your time and I thank you for coming by and sharing.
And Skeet, nice to meet you. I hope I didn't bore you...
Frank: Well, okay. We'll petition Jehovah.
All wise everlasting God Jehovah in Jesus name, we humbly approach your lofty throne of undeserved kindness at this time. Thanking you Jehovah for the many wonderful blessings that bestow upon us. We thank you for making it possible for us again to be in the home of Chris to have another study of your Word the Bible by means of the Bible Teach book. As always Jehovah as we cover information, we want to ponder over and see how we can use it to further bring honor and praise to your rich and holy name. We ask you to please be with Chris and his household and strengthen him build him up please in the way that you would have him to go. Jehovah, we really see that he's really interested in the Truth of your Word the Bible and He doesn't want to be deceived and that's definitely good because we definitely want to check out things concerning You to where we can all get in line to worship you with spirit and truth. So please be with him and strengthen him build him up in the way that you would have him to go. Jehovah, we love you and we want to do your will, so please be with us in such a way that we can do this more fully. we do fall short of coming up to your righteous standards from time to time. We ask you to please forgive us and at the same time strengthen us. And now Jehovah as we prepare to do other things, we turn all of our lives into your care. These and other blessings we ask in your son Jesus name, Amen.
Chris: Well thank you kind sirs, and thank you for you time.
Frank: We enjoyed it.
Chris: Thank you for your knowledge.
Frank: We certainly enjoy your setup there, that's nice.
Chris: Well thank you. Y'all be careful out there.
