Is it Biblical?

What is Paul's Thorn in the Flesh?

2010-04-20T09:19:00.000-04:00

“...even because of the extraordinary character of the revelations. Therefore, so that I would not become arrogant, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to trouble me—so that I would not become arrogant.” —2 Corinthians 12:7 NET

Paul's Thorn has been speculated about in every theological circle that I've come across, however, not many theologians seem to do what I thought theologians did, which is the let scripture interpret scripture.

A lot of people say that no one knows what Paul's Thorn was, but when I read the verse, I see pretty plainly what it is. Paul's Thorn = A Messenger of Satan = A person or group of people--not sickness and disease. I have no idea what makes everyone think that it was some type of sickness or disease, when we, in most cultures anyway, have the same kind of idiom. We all have people in our lives who are "pains in the neck" or know someone who is a "pain in the @##". So, I can see someone in Paul's life who's always coming up against him when he's talking about these high and mighty revelations. We all have people in our lives who tend to keep us from thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought to, and some are better (or worse) at it than others.

The phrase "Thorn in the flesh" is not unique to this passage of scripture. Because Paul read books commonly known as part of the Old Testament. If you did a quick search you would find other phrases like “thorns in your sides,” —Numbers 33:55 KJV; “thorns in your eyes” —Joshua 23:13 KJV; “thorns in your sides” —Judges 2:3 KJV

Two other things to notice about 2Cor 12:7 is that Paul is writing in his letter to the Corinthians that HE believes that this thorn was 1.) given to him 2.)for a certain purpose. To sum up point number 1, this "thorn in the flesh" wasn't given to him by God. A "thorn in the flesh" is not a good gift. Every perfect give comes from the "father of lights" James 1:17. “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:” —James 1:13 KJV

As for what the purpose was, that is simply Paul's opinion of why he has a thorn in the flesh. Whenever something happens to us, we try to assign some cause to it, but none of those should be connected to God unless, it is indeed a good or perfect gift.

The only person trying to stop people from hearing good news is Satan.

My First Visit to a Kingdom Hall

2010-03-24T22:08:00.001-04:00

My First Visit to a Kingdom Hall

I had always been very leery of places with no windows. The only places that I saw in my community with no windows were porno shops and Kingdom Halls. As you know, I have been participating in a bible study with Jehovah Witnesses for several months now and have been trying to develop a relationship with the guys that come by each week - a relationship outside of just debating whether Jesus rose bodily or not. I recognize that I'm getting real close to where I'm going to have to preach a message of faith in Jesus Christ and the real good news to my brothers and how the WBTS has become a God to them rather than the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but right now, I'm just enjoying the ride and learning and preparing a little more. I decided that it would be good to go with them to the KH to 1) learn a little more about them and how and why they do what they do, 2) gain a level of trust and openness with them that I wouldn't have otherwise, and 3) have something to stand on when I invited them to attend one of our church services at the church we attend.

I try to approach every aspect of my interaction with JW's from the standpoint of love and not to quickly condemn as most Christians would. In other words, I should be going to the Kingdom Hall in Jesus' name to condemn the JW's, but through the Christ in my the JW's might be delivered. Interestingly enough, our bible study last night centered around Christ's ransom sacrifice. I used the opportunity to explain to Frank and Dank about how the ransom sacrifice is much more than and opportunity for people to have hope in a paradise earth. I was able to show them that while I'm in Christ, I can do what Christ did and live how Christ lived. I have a confidence about my salvation, eternal life, ability to stay free from sin, that the WBTS doesn't teach.

I also approach this visit to the Kingdom Hall from the standpoint of 1Thes 5:2:

“But examine all things; hold fast to what is good.” —1 Thessalonians 5:21 NET

So in that, here are my observations:

I could go on for pages about how many erroneous doctrines and misstatements I heard during the course of my visit, but there were some good aspects of what I saw in this congregation. Now most people don't want to admit that there are any good aspects to a "cult", but the truth of the matter is, there are a lot of bad things that we don't admit about the modern Christian church. The other thing that you have to understand is that Satan is not a creator, so he only is able to pervert truth. So in perverting truth, we have to understand that there is a truth that can be found in each of the things that we see Satan perverting, thus there are truths that can be found in the JW's worship and church services.

1. Multi-cultural

Most of us in America have no concept of a truly multicultural church. This was not the case at the meeting I went to. I saw blacks, whites, a few Hispanics, and a few other nationalities there. The only way I knew of the other nationalities, is because they were actively involved in the service and I heard their heavy accents.

2. Active Participation

One thing that the JW's pride themselves on is teaching and education. Thus, the service contains elements of that teaching and education. For instance, after they sing a song (a very dry song for my taste), they go over the week's watchtower and people raise their hands to share what they got out of the watchtower. Then you have some JW's that will come up to the front to do role plays of how to use the current watchtower to witness to people in their local community. This type of thing is what impresses the impressionable as they don't experience this level of interaction in any other Christian church that I've ever seen. In fact, I dare say that the majority of Christian churches don't inspire any crowd participation aside from the initial singing.

3. Accountability

One thing that I've learned from Frank and Dank is how they were impressed with the "organization" as it relates to what I would call accountability, while most everyone else would call mind control, and of course the JW's call structure and discipline. The reason they can keep people in line is because they keep smaller "contact" groups. This is a growing concept with a lot of modern Christian churches and church becomes a larger meeting of people from all walks of life where no one really has any real interaction with people in the congregation outside of church. While this concept doesn't impress me when it comes to the JW's, I can see how appealing it would be for someone who had seen most Christian churches where you simply go and do the "Sunday" thing and probably go to a midweek service every now and then. Most churches I've ever attended or visited didn't really make it a point to have contact outside of the four walls of the church. We simply all meetup on Sunday, sing a few songs, hear a sermon, take up an offering and go home. Of course the early Christian churches operated in a much more community based way as opposed to the way we are accustomed to church in America.

Now as for the things I didn't like, it alls boils down to the stuffy, almost plastic "Stepford Wives" kind of service and interaction. Sure, everybody had a smile on their face and greeted you with love and acceptance, but I was the only male there without a suit, I didn't have words to the songs (not that I wanted to even sing the songs), and it was an overall creepy feeling. Beyond the obvious mind-control messaging that goes on during each service, there's really nothing else to the service from my standpoint, but I'm sure that a true JW or ex-JW can shed more light on the inner workings.

Meeting Number 3, Dec. 14, 2009: Summary

2010-03-23T17:16:00.004-04:00

Meeting Number 3, Dec. 14, 2009: Summary

On this meeting Frank brought a young "friend" along with him. We'll call him "Skeet" to protect his identity. Since the last meeting, I've added the New World Translation into my Accordance software to be able to compare their version with other versions. I've also had a chance to read a couple of really decent books to better understand the JW's and where they're coming from:

How to Respond to 'What Does the Bible Really Teach', by Wilbur Lingle

Captives of a Concept: Anatomy of an illusion by Don Cameron

(Understanding the illusionary concept that holds millions of Jehovah's Witnesses captive by controlling how they think and act without them realizing it.)

Talking to "Skeet", I had learned that he had moved from the New England area to Brunswick, was jobless, and had only been a JW for about a year. I could tell by the look in his eyes that he was soooo disinterested in what Lloyd and I were talking about as his eyes wondered all over the place. As the bible study went on, he began to shrink behind Lloyd to avoid eye contact with me. Although, I had noticed that as I pointed out things about the true name of God using the bible software, he pepped up and a few times did a double take after reading some things that he didn't find in the Watchtower publications.

I also think it's proper for me to remind readers that my JW friends really believe with all their heart that this organization, that this religion that they follow is indeed the true religion, and that this guides both their statements and their actions. However, I do feel like I've broken down a few walls and I think that they think that they are eager to get someone like me who they don't have to explain a lot of the basic truths about God to, to join their ranks. But as you'll see, this can never happen as I'm rebellious by nature and I've already stood on the promises of God, regardless of what anyone else thinks...

Meeting Number 3: Rough Transcript

2010-03-23T17:07:00.002-04:00

Meeting Number 3, Dec. 14, 2009: Rough Transcript

On this meeting Frank brought a young "friend" along with him. We'll call him "Skeet" to protect his identity. Since the last meeting, I've added the New World Translation into my Accordance software to be able to compare their version with other versions. I've also had a chance to read a couple of really decent books to better understand the JW's and where they're coming from:

How to Respond to 'What Does the Bible Really Teach', by Wilbur Lingle

Captives of a Concept: Anatomy of an illusion by Don Cameron

(Understanding the illusionary concept that holds millions of Jehovah's Witnesses captive by controlling how they think and act without them realizing it.)

Frank: So, we'll petition Jehovah, Skeet do you want to lead us in prayer?

Skeet: Almighty and Most Sovereign Jehovah God, we come before you and ask for your direction on our study as we as we want to learn about you and do your will and also make your heart rejoice. We wanna ask you for forgiveness for times we fall short because we wanna repent and uhm.... in Jesus name, Amen.

Frank & Chris: Amen.

Frank: Okay so, God wants you to know who he is, so you want to read paragraph 14, Chris?

Chris: Yeah,

If you want someone to get to know you, what might you do? Would you not tell the person your name? Does God have a name? Many religions answer that his name is “God” or “Lord,” but those are not personal names. They are titles, just as “king” and “president” are titles. The Bible teaches that God has many titles. “God” and “Lord” are among them. However, the Bible also teaches that God has a personal name: Jehovah. Psalm 83:18 says: “You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.” If your Bible translation does not contain that name, you may want to consult the Appendix on pages 195-7 of this book to learn why that is so. The truth is that God’s name appears thousands of times in ancient Bible manuscripts. So Jehovah wants you to know his name and to use it. In a sense, he is using the Bible to introduce himself to you.

Frank: Yes. So paragraph 14, What is God's name and why should we use it.

Chris: Now this is one, and I don't know if you saw it on the screen, but I was actually doing a little research before you got here. I know in this book its always referring to God as Jehovah...

Frank: Right,

Chris: Uhm, and I was actually searching for "Jehovah" in different versions of the bible... So let me ask you, where did "Jehovah" come from?

Frank: Uhm... In the... Original Hebrew scriptures

Chris: In the original Hebrew scriptures?

Frank: Yeah, it, the tetragrammaton.

Chris: Okay, you're talking about the "YHWH"?

Frank: Right. Yeah. And then the English version of that is "Jehovah"

Chris: Alright, but isn't that Yahweh (pronounced Yah'-way)?

Frank: Yeah, Yeah, Yahweh in the Hebrew, but the English version of that...

Chris: Yeah but if His name is Yahweh, and His name was written YHWH in Hebrew, why are we saying Jehovah instead of Yahweh?

Frank: Well this is the English version of that. Like the Greek and the Hebrew is Yahweh.

Chris: Yeah but even if I lived in France wouldn't they call me Chris because that's my name. They wouldn't try to call me a French version of Chris, right?

Frank: Okay, let's look back here and I think you, we'll get a little more on that, let's look at page 195-197.

Chris: Okay.

Frank: The Divine Name -- It's Use and Its Meaning. You want to read the first paragraph? and we'll just take turns?

Chris:

IN YOUR copy of the Bible, how is Psalm 83:18 translated? The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures renders this verse: “That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.” A number of other Bible translations give similar renderings. However, many translations leave out the name Jehovah, replacing it with such titles as “Lord” or “Eternal.” What belongs in this verse? A title or the name Jehovah?

And by the way, after y'all left I went online and got the NWT so that I can compare the versions using the software.

Frank: Uhm hmm. Okay, and what does the King James Version of that verse help you to appreciate.

Chris: Well in the King James Version it says Jehovah, but when I click on the Hebrew text underlying the King James Version I see the letters "YHWH". So what it tells me is that the translators of the KJV wrote "J-E-H-O-V-A-H" instead of YHWH or as in other places, "LORD" or "GOD".

Frank: Okay, well let's go on through this so that we can see if we can get a little more.

Chris: The other thing to note about the King James Version is that it only uses the word "Jehovah" four times. Even in other renderings of that Hebrew word, it's still not Jehovah.

Frank: And here's the thing. Back then they didn't use vowels.

Chris: Right.

Frank: Just like today we may use the word "building" we use the letters "bldg" to abbreviate it. And this is what they were doing there instead... they were leaving the vowels out and it was understood, but this is something, we really don't know what vowels went in there, so then we see they added the "O" and the "E" and the "A"...

Chris: So what about the "J"? I mean, why not "Y"?

Frank: (chuckles)

Chris: I mean why not... Alright, granted, the vowels were'nt present, but why not use the consonants that you have instead of just making up stuff? And this is one reason why I really started studying the bible, because I would read a certain passage in one translation and then in another translation, and even in an interlinear... I know a lot of translations have a certain theological bent based on the people who were doing the translating, whether they were Methodist, or Presbyterian or whatever, they kind of put their own philosophy into the translation, so a lot of times, I end up having to go back to the original Hebrew to make sure I can see what was actually written. But I don't read Hebrew, but I can tell whether to Hebrew words are the same or not. So, my main question would be, why such a huge emphasis on "Jehovah" and not "Yahweh"?

Frank: Well I understand what you're saying and this is important in our worship, because Jesus prayed to his father...

Chris: But Jesus always called him "Father".

Frank: Yeah. Yeah, but he said, "I've made your name known". Father is not a name. He say, "I made your name known to the men that you gave me out of the world. They're no part of the world just like I am no part of the world".

Chris: Alright, so are you saying that Jesus called him "Jehovah"?

Frank: Well, he made His name known to his followers.

Chris: But surely Jesus said His name at some point or another, right?

Frank: Yeah, It uh, it uh, He made His name known to His apostles and disciples.

Chris: Okay so what verse is that, "He made His name known"?

Skeet: John 17:6

We all silently read the following translations of John 17:6 on the screen...

““I have revealed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They belonged to you, and you gave them to me, and they have obeyed your word.” —John 17:6 NET

““I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.” —John 17:6 NWT

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.” —John 17:6 KJV

“I have manifested Your Name [I have revealed Your very Self, Your real Self] to the people whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have obeyed and kept Your word.” —John 17:6 AMP

Note: The understanding that I gather from different readings of this passage is not that Jesus revealed that God's real name was Jehovah, but that through Jesus word, actions, and teachings, he gave the disciples a good understanding of what Father God was all about. Thus, whatever we saw Jesus say and do, we can see that this would be how God wanted us to respond to troubles, issues, and problems.

Frank: So it's important in our worship and Jehovah God is pleased with that name that we're using.

Chris: You say he's pleased with that name, where does it say that?

Frank: No... I'm, I'm, I'm saying He's pleased with it because otherwise...

Chris: I know you're saying it, but is there scripture to back that up, that He's pleased with that name Jehovah and he He wants us to call Him Jehovah? Because, like I've told you before, if it's in there I wanna do it.

Frank: Well you can be comfortable. And I understand where you're coming from and that's good. I like the way you're doing...

Chris: But see, I'm comfortable with "Lord" because you can go down any street in this neighborhood and say, "My Lord"...

Frank: And who are you referring to? Just say right now, someone was to keep calling you, "man".

Chris: But see, Muslims don't call their god "Lord". They don't even call their god "God". When I say "God" and when I say "my Lord" everybody knows who I'm talking about.

Frank: No. Everybody wouldn't, but Jehovah, He would know who you're talking about, because he's the one who reads hearts. Okay.

Chris: But you're saying that God is more pleased with "Jehovah" than He is with "Yahweh" or "Lord".

Frank: He's pleased with that name, but as far as who'd calling him,

Chris: But that's not in the bible...

Frank: Well let's finish reading this....

Chris: Okay, let's stay on track here instead of getting bogged down...

Frank: And I think it would give you a little more insight.

This verse speaks about a name. In the original Hebrew in which much of the Bible was written, a unique personal name appears here. It is spelled יהוה (YHWH) in Hebrew letters. In English, the common rendering of that name is “Jehovah.” Does that name occur in only one Bible verse? No. It appears in the original text of the Hebrew Scriptures nearly 7,000 times!

NOTE: YHWH is found exactly 6520 times across 5,524 verses in the canon of scripture.

Chris: Now this book is saying that the common rendering is "Jehovah", but it's not based what we've just seen in a lot of different translations. So how does this book make the claim that "Jehovah" is the common rendering, when it is not. And nowhere, except in the New World Translation is it common.

Frank: Okay, Well...

Chris: And I've even looked in Encyclopedias and Dictionaries and a lot of them say that "Jehovah" is the incorrect rendering. But I don't take my cues from the encyclopedia and the dictionary. I like to let scripture interpret scripture.

Frank: Well, one thing, the reason this has been left out of the bible, that name, just think about the opposition that we have. Once upon a time all of these different places where Jehovah is rendered in the King James Version... I took my wife to Savannah and we got off on Aberconn and went into a large bookstore there in that little plaza, and I wanted a King James Version, because a lot of people that you talk to don't want to talk about anything but the King James Version... And I wanted to have one in my bag so that I can pull it out, but the thing about it: I looked through all the King James Versions and I found maybe one or two with Jehovah in it. So why is it being taken out? Well, why is this world in the predicament it's in? Satan is doing everything he possibly can to get us away from worshipping Jehovah God in the way that He wants to be worshipped. And if Satan could destroy this (holding up his pocket version of the New World Translation), he would. This is why in this, this New World Translation, the information that was taken out, has been put back in.

Chris: Alright, and I hear you say that, but why if the KJV substituted "Lord" for "YHWH" why didn't [translators of] the NWT go back and say, "We're going to go back and put in "YHWH" instead of putting in Jehovah, because on your point, if satan can get us away from that name, he would. For instance, I ran across something called the Sacred Names bible... like I told you, I want to know what did it say originally so I can understand it for myself. What this bible [Sacred Names Version] attempts to do is to put back in the sacred names of the bible, even here it reads "YHVH". So I'm wondering why you're using one wrong name or title for another, and I don't get that.

Frank: Well here's the thing. In the English rendition of that, it would be "JHVH".

Chris: What changes a "Y" into a "J"?

Frank: The English rendition of that.

Chris: So who decided that, I guess is the question I need to ask?... Because that's not natural. In other words, if I travelled over to India right now and met someone and saw his name, I would try to pronounce it the way I saw it and not just start substituting letters...

Even with other nationalities, they may not say their names the way that I see them. I may see those Arabic letters and try to pronounce them the way that I learned to put letters together... in other words I would try to pronounce it the way that it's presented. And what I'm saying is that in the Hebrew bible, what's presented is "Y-H-W-H". I don't know how it was pronounced, but the way I see it is "Yahweh". I'm saying that what the NWT is doing is taking what's presented in the Hebrew and adding something else in there.

Frank: So you think we should be using Hebrew names instead of the English renderings?

Chris: I mean, that would be more correct than just making up stuff.

Frank: (chuckles) You know, one thing that I have found out, and I'll go and do some more research to whether it's other than...

Chris: Well do you ever use "Elohim" or any of the other names of God?

Frank: No.. No...

Chris: Why not?

Frank: One of the things, I'm convinced that this is the organization that Jehovah God is using. He has a faithful and discreet slave class here on earth that He's using that's uhm, Jehovah God, through His Son Jesus Christ and this faithful and discreet slave class, which this is the group that's going to be in heaven ruling with Christ. This is a remnant here on earth and this is the one that comes out with the literature... Jehovah God's spirit is working among them and as they get this information, they put it out and give it to us and this is the closest, in this system of things, and the system of things to come, this is the closest that you're going to get to Jehovah. It's through the channel that He's using....

Chris: So you're saying the organization is the channel that He's using?

Frank: Yeah, the faithful and discreet slave class that brought out... It says, "Who is the faithful and discreet slave that Jehovah God is using to give the food at the proper time?" This is the channel... It's no organization like this on the face of the earth...

Chris: I agree with that... So how long have you been with the organization.

Frank: 1984.

Chris: Now were you involved in any other ministries before that?

Frank: Yeah, Baptist. I was a Baptist, but I really never learned or applied anything when I was there. I was just spinnin' my wheels going no where.

Chris and Frank: (chuckling)

Chris: Just going to church every Sunday just to be going...

Frank: But this has really impressed me. I can see Jehovah God's spirit working in the organization and what impressed me so much about the organization... I looked at seed... In satan's organization, if someone dislike you, they could make it hard for you and throw you out or do whatever they want to ya know, but in Jehovah's organization, if somebody's trying to stop you from worshiping Jehovah, he can be moved out of the way! I mean completely! Yeah, I've seen that Jehovah God's organization is nothing to play with. It convinced me over and over again. I've experienced things, I've seen things, I could stand on the mountain top and tell the world that this is the organization that Jehovah God is using day in and day out. So when I see something that comes down from the faithful and discreet slave class... ....and we're not naive ya know. I'd say that we're the most educated people on the face of this earth when it comes to God's word. And I don't go questioning a whole bunch of things. I go and look up references, but if it comes from the slave class that Jehovah God is using, I'm okay. But still, I do research, for times when someone has questions, or give them as much information as I can on it.

Chris: And I do the same. I don't like giving people information that I don't know nothing about. I don't like to "darken counsel with words without knowledge" [a reference to Job: 38:2]

Frank: Well, One of things that I'm comfortable with this... and if there was any type of misleadings, I would be..., but I tell people that if you can show me, on the face of this earth, an organization that Jehovah God is using more-so than this organization, I'm all ears, but I never hear anything. Because satan has got his hand in the majority of the organizations around the world. He's manipulating things, he keep transforming himself into an angel of light and he's putting.... ...the demons, when hear Jehovah's name, they shutter. They shutter with that name, Chris.

Chris: Which name? [I have to admit, I wasn't really listening while he was talking as I was clicking away on my computer trying to research the use of "Jehovah" in other versions of the bible]

Frank: Jehovah.

Chris: They shutter at the name of Jehovah?

Frank: They SHUTTER!

Chris: I thought they shuttered at the name of Jesus? or Yeshua? I mean, that's what's in the bible?

Frank: Well, Jesus is uhm... I'd say Jehovah's right hand man is his son. In fact look at Matthew 28:18.

Chris: Hold on real quick, I wanted do this too, while I'm thinking about it.

[We're all looking at the details about the use of "YHWH" using Accordance Bible Software]

      God = 4
   H3068 Yhwh yhwh = 4
   he = 1
   H3068 Yhwh yhwh = 1
   JEHOVAH = 4
   H3068 Yhwh yhwh = 4
   Lord = 6403
   H0136 ’Adonay ’adonai (variant) = 6403
   H3068 Yhwh yhwh (variant)
   Lord’s = 108
   H3068 Yhwh yhwh = 108

And we also look at an article from the Thematic Study Bible on the Titles of God:

1205
God, titles and names of
These reflect the great and varied aspects of God’s being and character. They are particularly used by the psalmists to speak of God as a source of strength, security, blessing and hope.

• Titles which denote God’s greatness

God Almighty Ge 17:1 This was the special name by which God revealed himself to the patriarchs. The Hebrew is “El-Shaddai” possibly meaning “God the mountain,” emphasizing God’s might. See also Ge 28:3; 48:3; Ex 6:3; Ru 1:20-21; Job 5:17 “Almighty” is the favorite divine title in the book of Job: Job 6:4; 37:23; Ps 91:1; Rev 16:14; 19:15

God Most High Ge 14:18-20 The Hebrew “El-Elyon” denotes the supremacy and sovereignty of God. See also Ge 14:22; Dt 32:8; 2Sa 22:14 pp Ps 18:13; Ps 9:2; 21:7; 46:4; 47:2; 78:35; 97:9; Isa 14:14; Da 3:26 Jesus Christ as the Son of the Most High: Mk 5:7 pp Lk 8:28; Lk 1:32-35; Lk 6:35; Ac 16:17

The Eternal God Ge 21:33 The Hebrew “El-Olam” only occurs in this verse. See also Dt 33:27; Ro 16:26

The Ancient of Days Da 7:9, 13-22

The Mighty One Lk 1:49 See also Jos 22:22; Ps 50:1; 132:2-5; Isa 1:24; 49:26; 60:16; Mk 14:62

The living God Ps 84:2; Da 6:26-27 See also Dt 5:26; Jos 3:10; 1Sa 17:26-36; 2Ki 19:16 pp Isa 37:17; Ps 42:2; Jer 10:10; Mt 16:16; Ac 14:15; Heb 10:31

The Holy One of Israel Isa 12:6 “the Holy One of Israel” is a favorite divine title in the book of Isaiah. See also 2Ki 19:22 pp Isa 37:23; Ps 71:22; 78:41; 89:18; Isa 30:12-15; 41:14; 45:11; 55:5; 60:9

The LORD Ge 4:26; Ex 6:2 See also Ex 3:15; 34:5-7

• Titles which refer to God as LORD

   Dt 10:17; 28:10; 1Ki 2:3; Ps 146:10; Jer 14:9; Da 9:14

The Lord God Rev 1:8; 22:5

The LORD God Almighty Ps 89:8 See also Ps 80:4; Jer 5:14; 15:16; Hos 12:5; Am 4:13

The LORD Most High Ps 7:17 See also Ps 47:2; 97:9

The Sovereign LORD 2Sa 7:28 See also Dt 9:26; Jos 7:7; Isa 25:8; Jer 32:17; Am 7:2

• Titles referring to God as the source of light

   2Sa 22:29; Ps 27:1; 84:11 the sun; Isa 10:17 the Light of Israel; Mic 7:8; Jas 1:17 the Father of the heavenly lights

• Titles referring to God as the source of strength

   Ps 59:9 See also Ex 15:2; Ps 18:1; 22:19; 28:7; 46:1; 59:17; 81:1; Isa 12:2

• Titles referring to God as the source of security

A shield Ge 15:1 See also Dt 33:29; 2Sa 22:3 pp Ps 18:2; 2Sa 22:31 pp Ps 18:30; Ps 28:7; 84:11; 115:9; Pr 2:7; 30:5

A refuge Ps 46:1 See also Ps 9:9; 61:3; 91:2-9; 119:114; 142:5; Jer 16:19; Joel 3:16; Na 1:7

A hiding place Ps 32:7

A fortress 2Sa 22:2 pp Ps 18:2; Ps 31:3; 62:2-6; 91:2; 144:2; Isa 17:10; Jer 16:19

A stronghold 2Sa 22:3 pp Ps 18:2; Ps 9:9; 27:1; 37:39; 43:2; 144:2; Joel 3:16

A defender Dt 10:18; Ps 68:5; Pr 23:11

A Rock Ge 49:24; Dt 32:4; Ps 19:14; Isa 26:4

• Titles referring to God as the source of provision
   Ge 22:14; La 3:24 See also Ge 22:8; Ps 73:26; 119:57; 142:5; Jer 10:16; 51:19

• Titles referring to God as the source of hope

   Jer 14:8 See also Jer 17:13; 50:7

• Titles referring to God as the source of peace
   Ro 15:33 See also Jdg 6:24; Ro 16:20; 2Co 13:11; Php 4:9; 1Th 5:23; 2Th 3:16; Heb 13:20

• Titles referring to God as the source of comfort
   Jer 8:18; 2Co 1:3

• Titles referring to God as the source of grace
   Ex 34:6; Ne 9:31; Ps 86:15; Jnh 4:2; 1Pe 5:10

• Titles referring to God as the source of love
   Ps 59:10-17; 144:2; 2Co 13:11; 1Jn 4:7-16

• God as shepherd
   Ps 23:1 See also Ge 48:15; 49:24; Ps 80:1

• The true God
   2Ch 15:3; Jer 10:10; Jn 17:3; 1Jn 5:20

Chris: I don’t want to bore y'all with all of this

Frank: No.. No.. You’re not...

Chris: You know, if his only personal name is Jehovah and that’s the name that pleases him, I want to call him Jehovah...

Frank: You’re not going wrong...

Chris: But at this time, I can’t be sure...

Frank: I can be sure for ya...

Chris: Well I appreciate that

(everyone chuckles)

Chris: I just need to be sure for myself... Cuz I’ll be the one standing before him, right behind Jesus... (Don't get it twisted, I'm sure, but I don't ever want to come off as Mr. Know it all and end up shutting him down and he never comes back to continue our dialog, develop a friendship, and possibly have the opportunity to lead him to his true rights and authority in Christ Jesus)

Frank: I tell you something else that you can do, if you uhm...

Chris: Cuz, I see Yahweh and I’m down with Yahweh...

Frank: Yeah...

(everyone chuckles)

Chris: You wanted to look at Matt 28:18?

Frank: Yeah, and just think about what Jesus said right there...

We all read the verses silently on the screen:

“Then Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”” —Matthew 28:18–20 NET

Frank; And just ponder over that when Jesus said this.. He done did everything his father assigned him to do...

Chris: Yeah, this is the verse I was trying to remember last week. This is how I got off on the tangent that... Well, let me just read it.. And I’ll read it out of your version...

“And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,” —Matthew 28:18–19 NWT

Frank: And it goes on to say ya know, in the name of Jesus, ya know, every knee shall bend in heaven and on earth, and that’s why I say that he’s Jehovah God’s right hand man and son. So he has the authority... there in Verse 18...

Chris: Yeah but, here is what I, and I thought you said as well. Satan is real, satan does have control over things in this earth, and he does blind eyes. So what I’m trying to make sure that I don’t do is get caught up in substituting what’s written. For instance, if the scripture says “Every knee shall bow in the name of Jesus”, well then, that’s the name I need to know and use. I need to know that name, because obviously there’s some power in there, because the bible says it....

Frank: And look who gave it to him... One of the things to keep in mind is what Jesus said. He had all of this authority and power given to him, but what did he teach his followers on how to pray and who to pray to? He say, “to my father”, see. We got to go through him to get to the Father...

Chris: And that’s a good point. When Jesus was here on the earth, he was a Jew and obviously had access to the Hebrew scriptures, He and his followers. So what did they call Him. Are you saying they called him Jehovah?

Frank: Who? Jesus?

Chris: Jesus and his followers?

Frank: No.

Chris: Because the way I pray, I don’t call him Yahweh or Jehovah. I say “Father God”. Because he’s my Father.

Frank: Almighty. He is the almighty. And Jehovah differentiates him from any other God.

Chris: You know that’s a good point and when you keep saying that, who you’re talking about is differentiating him from who I’m talking about.

Frank: Uhm hmm. (slight nervous chuckle)

Chris: Just like when I’m talking to Muslims and they say Allah is his name. So I say, “Well that person you’re talking about is different from the person I’m talking about”... And I don’t want to get into that, but I’m saying that according to what I’m reading, he’s Father, Yahweh, Elohim.

Frank: So you can’t except the English rendition of the Hebrew word?

Chris: Naw... not if it’s wrong... (Frank and Chris chuckles)

Frank: If it’s coming from the faithful and discreet slave class, it’s not wrong.

Chris: So what are you talking about, “If it’s coming from the faithful and discreet slave class, it’s not wrong.”?

Frank: Yeah, the channel that Jehovah God is using to educate us about His will and purpose, it’s not wrong... no...

Chris: So you’re saying that this faithful and discreet slave class? What?... So you’re saying whatever they say, that’s it?

Frank: Well it’s coming from Jehovah...

Chris: Because Catholics say the same thing about the Pope and the Pope has changed so many times it’s not even funny.

Frank: Yeah, You’re right. You’re right.

Chris: So I guess.. I don’t know what you’re talking about.. “the Faithful and Discreet slave.” So you’re saying the faithful and discreet slave is here on earth now...

Frank: It’s a remnant of the ones, they in heaven with Christ. And they’re the governing body.

Chris: And you’re saying whatever they say goes and so, are these men like the Pope?

Frank: Nooooooooo. You wouldn’t even know ‘em. If one of them was to come in here you wouldn’t know it because we call each other brother regardless of the... we don’t go with titles and all of that.

Chris: Just like I call Yahweh, Father... (I admit that I said it in a snarky condescending tone)

Frank: Well, I wouldn’t say that... They don’t elevate themselves with Jehovah.... we don’t go there... In fact we’re afraid to...

Chris: Okay, what scripture are we looking for here....

Frank: Matthew 24:45-47

““Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” —Matthew 24:45–47 NWT

Chris: So let me go back up here and see what we’re talking about. I just want to get this in context. He’s talking about end times... So this is where the disciples are asking about the end and how they will know when the end will come.

Frank: Well it starts off with verse 3 asking him what will be the end of this system of things, the conclusion of things, and he went on and told them certain things that would take place.

“While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU;” —Matthew 24:3–4 NWT

Chris: Oh yeah this good here, because whenever I see Jesus saying something, I really want to pay attention to it. Let me read it here out of the Amplified Bible since it’s here in red...

“Jesus answered them, Be careful that no one misleads you [deceiving you and leading you into error].” —Matthew 24:4 AMP

And that’s where I am right here. I want to be real careful and take heed what I hear.

Frank: One of the things, I can understand where you’re coming from. But this is the last thing I worry about. Because, I...

Chris: I know for YOU. I’m not trying to convince you of anything. I’m trying to be fully persuaded in my own mind [Rom 14:5]

Frank: I can understand that, And that’s good, that’s good...

Chris: Because it goes on to say:

“For many will come in (on the strength of) My name [appropriating the name which belongs to Me], saying, I am the Christ (the Messiah), and they will lead many astray.” —Matthew 24:5 AMP

Frank: I was telling him... He didn’t remember... How old are you Skeet?

Skeet: 31

Frank: 31, I don’t think you were born then when Jim Jones led that group down there in Guyana. I was telling him about that just this evening. But I told him had he come to Brunswick, he would have gotten a whole lot of other ones to follow him. And that let’s you know that we shouldn’t be following a man!

(Note: It should be noted that Skeet’s posture and demeanor has changed a lot from the time we got started. He was sitting up erect with an engaging posture, until he saw me question Franks claims from the bible. Now he’s sunk back into the sofa with his face hidden behind Frank so much now that I can’t even see his face. Now grant it, he’s probably just bored and tired, but I can tell when I talk to him privately later on that he’s having doubts...)

Frank: But I know exactly what you’re saying. We’re supposed to be like the Bereans. When the Apostle Paul would go there and he preached. And when he’d leave, they’d go and look at the scriptures to see if what he was saying was true ya know... But one thing I like about Jehovah’s organization, it’s an open book. We don’t have anything to hide.

Chris: (I’m continuing to read the context of the previous scripture)...

““Therefore stay alert, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have been alert and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

“Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom the master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves their food at the proper time?” —Matthew 24:42–45 NET

To me it sounds like he’s talking about those leaders and overseers that he’s called, appointed and anointed.

Frank: Yeah. These are the ones that are in Revelation 14:1, the 144,000. It’s a little remnant on earth, but the majority of them are in heaven right now with Christ. This group was started being selected in Pentecost of 33CE when Holy Spirit was poured out on the 120 in the upper room and they came out and began to, when they got filled with Holy Spirit, and they [started] speaking and everyone from all these nations around heard them speaking in their own language. This was powerful.

Chris: This is when they were speaking in tongues right?

Frank: Yeah. uhm-hmm. And each one there from their own lands, heard other ones speaking in their native tongue. Yeah, that was powerful. But this is the group that’s spearheading the preaching work and we can see how they’re speeding up the work right now. Because in the headquarters, they had a lot of workers there, and now they’re sending them out into the field to speed up the preaching work. Because we can see that Jehovah is going to bring this system to an end. It’s so clear from what we’re being taught that we can see... we’re watching for different things. And we can see that this system of things is playing right in line to what we've been taught. We can see certain things right now that's going to trigger the great tribulation that's coming up for mankind, and it's so simple. This is what this study will bring out to you. You'll be able to see things that you thought were not there that will come out and be clear to you.

Let's finish this little part here and see what we get out of this...

Chris: Well, we left off on paragraph two, and it's bringing up a question that I had that if YHWH was in there over 7000 times, why would we go in and change it to Jehovah.

How important is God’s name? Consider the model prayer that Jesus Christ gave. It begins this way: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.” (Matthew 6:9) Later, Jesus prayed to God: “Father, glorify your name.” In response, God spoke from heaven, saying: “I both glorified it and will glorify it again.” (John 12:28) Clearly, God’s name is of the utmost importance. Why, then, have some translators left this name out of their translations of the Bible and replaced it with titles?

I agree with the last part of that paragraph, because even the translators or the New World Translation is doing what this book is accusing translators of other bible versions of doing. I still don't understand why you guys find it so important to replace YHWH with Jehovah. And I know you told me about the "faithful and discreet slave", but I know how to read and I can see, but I can't place more importance on "Jehovah", "Yahweh", etc more than Jesus did -- probably because Jesus wanted us to call him "Father", and relate to God in a more personal way than just as a title or even "friend" as your book tries to convey. I believe we can be friends of God for sure, but he wants us to be more than just friends.

If Jesus came on this earth and he example to follow, because whenever I have a doubt about something, I just look to see what Jesus did...

Frank: Yes, he set a fine example for us to follow...

Chris: He did. He did. However, even over the issue of whether his name is Jehovah or whether his name is Yahweh, for me to stay safe, I'm going to do what Jesus did, and just call him my Father. He's my Father. My Father God.

Frank: Yeah as long as you got him being the Almighty. Ya know. None higher than he is, and you might come to appreciate that name Jehovah. I've seen that name work. Like I said the demons, they shutter.

Chris: Sure, but the bible doesn't say that demons shutter at the name of Jehovah. The bible says that demons tremble and the name of Jesus.

Frank: That name too. In fact when Jesus sent...

Chris: I guess what I'm hearing you say is that the name Jesus isn't as powerful as the name Jehovah.

Frank: Well, do you think it would be?

Chris: If the bible says it, yes...

Frank: You think the son's name would be as powerful as the father's name?

Chris: If the father says it is, then it is. He said, "I've given you a name that is above every name".

Frank: Yeah... Not His. It's not above His name.

Chris: Okay.

Frank: In heaven and on earth, but Jehovah God is above all of that.

Chris: Well lets look at the verse. Let me find it here...

“Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:” —Philippians 2:9 KJV

Frank: Yeah, "GIVEN him a name". So the one that gives you something, you wouldn't be, and Jesus never did. Jesus said the Father is greater than he was.

Chris: Well in the mouth of two or three witnesses every truth is established, so let's look at another text...

“This power he exercised in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms far above every rule and authority and power and dominion and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.” —Ephesians 1:20–21 NET

Chris: Now the "he" there is referring to God right?

Frank: Uhm-hmm

Chris: Well it seems to me that He - God - placed Jesus on his right hand, placed him far above every rule and authority and power, and placed him above every name that is named, not only in this age, but the one to come. So God did that, right?

Frank: Uhm-hmm, Yeah. The Father. The Father did that for his son.

Chris: But he place Jesus, he's talking about Jesus right?

Frank: Yeah, his son.

Chris: So what I'm reading here is that God placed Jesus above every name that is named. Isn't that right?

Frank: Yeah, in heaven and on earth.

Chris: So wouldn't the name "Jesus" be above the name "Jehovah".

Frank: Jehovah!? Aww.. Come on now... Naw... Come on now... (chuckling)

Chris: It just said above every name that is named. Is Jehovah a name that has been named? You guys keep naming him Jehovah.

Frank: No... there's so much difference between Jehovah and his son Jesus.

Chris: Yes I know that God and Jesus are different, I know they are a two distinct persons.

Frank: Because Jehovah God never had a beginning and never will He have an ending. And Jesus HAD a beginning.

Chris: Where does it say that at?

Frank: Hmm?

Chris: Where does it say that Jesus had a beginning?

Frank: Look at Proverbs 8. Let's look at verse 22.

Chris: “The LORD created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.” —Proverbs 8:22 NET

Is that Solomon talking there?

Frank: No, No, that's Wisdom being personified in Jesus. Yeah. Read on down there and you'll see...

Chris: So you say we're talking about Wisdom, right?

Frank: Yeah, which is Jesus.

Chris: Where do you get that from?

Frank: Just go on and read it, you'll see what I'm talking about.

Chris: (continues to read)

“From eternity I was appointed, from the beginning, from before the world existed. When there were no deep oceans I was born, when there were no springs overflowing with water; before the mountains were set in place– before the hills–I was born, before he made the earth and its fields, or the beginning of the dust of the world. When he established the heavens, I was there; when he marked out the horizon over the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above, when the fountains of the deep grew strong, when he gave the sea his decree that the waters should not pass over his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him as a master craftsman, and I was his delight day by day, rejoicing before him at all times, rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth, and delighting in its people. “So now, children, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction so that you may be wise, and do not neglect it. Blessed is the one who listens to me, watching at my doors day by day, waiting beside my doorway. For the one who finds me finds life and receives favor from the LORD. But the one who does not find me brings harm to himself; all who hate me love death.”” —Proverbs 8:23–36 NET

Frank: So this helps you to appreciate how Jesus was... What I like about that, how he was fond of the sons of men and him being a master worker under his father. And you know what a master worker is, you have like a master mechanic, a master electrician, they're working under someone. So Jehovah God created his son Jesus Christ first and then his son is a master worker, creating every other thing, See.

Skeet: (whispering) Colossians 1:15-16.

Frank: Yeah, Colossians 1:15-16.

Chris: See I'm still here at proverbs, I'm looking at Proverbs 8:1.

“Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice? At the top of the elevated places along the way, at the intersection of the paths she takes her stand;” —Proverbs 8:1–2 NET

See I agree that this passage is talking about wisdom and I believe that Wisdom was there at the beginning according to this passage. But wisdom is not Jesus and Jesus is not wisdom. I'm not making that connection.

Frank: Yeah, well wisdom...

Chris: Jesus is wise,

Frank: Yeah, Yeah, this is where the wisdom is personified and it's speaking about Jesus.

Chris: You're saying it's speaking about Jesus, but I don't see anything in the passage that says it's speaking about Jesus. It clearly says that it's talking about Wisdom.

Frank: You can't see it's speaking about Jesus?

Chris: Not if it's saying wisdom and using "her". Whenever I've seen Wisdom personified, wisdom has a female gender as it does in this passage. And whenever the bible speaks of Jesus, it gives Jesus a male gender. Right?

Frank: Okay, where do you see "her".

Chris: Well let's see what it says in the New World Translation....

“Does not wisdom keep calling out, and discernment keep giving forth its voice?” —Proverbs 8:1 NWT

Well in you're bible, it doesn't personify wisdom. NWT calls wisdom an "it". But in other versions, Wisdom is personified as a "her". (We're looking at Prov. 8:1 in the NET, KJV, AMP, MSG, NIV, etc.)

Chris: So what was the other verse you wanted to look at?

Skeet: Colossians 1:15-16.

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him—all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers—all things were created through him and for him.” —Colossians 1:15–16 NET

Frank: So this helps you to appreciate how this ties in with that master worker...

Chris: Well, I can't tie it into Proverbs, because that's talking about wisdom. And wisdom is different from Jesus.

Frank: Well you can see Jehovah's wisdom in His son Jesus Christ.

Chris: Well you can see Jehovah's wisdom in the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit is still different form Jesus and God.

Frank: You're right. You're right. You'd be surprised how many people don't know that. You're right. You're right about that.

(NOTE: I know that JW's do everything they can to refute a trinitarian point of view and this way I can at least keep them thinking I have "some light", because I know how to separate Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, while they stay the same and in unity. In other words, I can see Holy Spirit being here on earth now, while Jesus is in Heaven, sitting at the right hand of God.)

I continue reading Col 1:15 in context to let God's Word continue to sow seeds of the salvation sermon I know I'm going to have to preach at some point...

“giving thanks to the Father who has qualified you to share in the saints’ inheritance in the light. He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation,” —Colossians 1:12–15 NET

Chris: By the way, if something is born is it-- something born is not the same as something created, Right? If my wife births a child, she didn't create it, right?

Frank: (looking at the ceiling pondering my question)

Chris: Something created is something that's made.

Frank: Yeah,

Chris: So what I'm saying is that Jesus wasn't created like Adam was created and formed from the dust of the ground.

Frank: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation...

Chris: the firstborn OVER all creation.

Frank: Well look at the New World Translation there.

Chris: Yeah New World says "the firstborn of all creation".

Frank: Yes. I imagine why it's the most accurate translation.

Chris: Yeah, you keep saying, and I've really looked to see if that is true, but I haven't found anything to support the claim that the NWT translation is the most accurate translation. As a matter of fact, I was wondering why I couldn't find NWT on the Accordance website so that I could add it into my software.

Frank: Well, it's on the internet. I'll see if I can get you that before I leave. Well this guy that wrote that, he wasn't one of Jehovah's Witnesses, now. He did a research on quite a few of the bible translations and this was on Jeopardy.

Chris: I even looked for that too and I couldn't find it on Jeopardy's website, to find out whether that was true or not. But I'll keep looking for it...

Frank: I should have it in my bag out there in the car.

Chris: Because I'd like to see that.

Frank: Alright, let me go out there for a minute...

(While Frank goes out to the car, I get a chance to ask "Skeet" a few questions)

Chris: So how long have you been with Jehovah's Witnesses?

Skeet: A year.

Chris: A year? Okay, did you attend another church or anything before Jehovah's Witnesses?

Skeet: No. Not much no.

Chris: I see JW's around a lot, and I told "Frank" that I admire their tenacity to get out and go door to door, but I didn't know what they were teaching. I'm just one of those guys who like to see it for myself. I used to go to different churches and most people don't know what they're talking about.

Frank comes back in

Frank: Can I use your restroom?

Chris: Sure.

I continue on with "Skeet"

Chris: So, do you live in this area?

Skeet: Yeah.

Chris: So what do you do for a living?

Skeet: Well, I've been down here for a few years, I moved down here from New England - from New Hampshire and I'm right now I'm not working...

Chris: So how do you like all this down south heat?

Skeet: I'm still getting used to it?

Chris: My daughter wants to go to school in Delaware, we we'll be driving her up to Delaware next month. So I look forward to slipping and sliding on the ice.

There's about a good 65 seconds of uncomfortable silence while we're waiting on Frank to come out of the rest room.

Frank: Yeah, I looked at that... They (NWT Translators?) got a lotta critics though. Different ones, you know how when someone brings up something like that (about NWT being the most accurate)...

[he's fumbling through his satchel looking for some papers to show me]

Chris: While you're looking for that though, the other thing that kinda makes me want to stick with what I was saying earlier is this passage that I read here in Joel 2:32

“And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.” —Joel 2:32 KJV

If calling upon the name of the Lord, I shall be delivered, and he gave Jesus a name that's above every name as we read in Ephesians, and Jesus just so happens, came down on earth to die so that we can be delivered from our sins, I think I'd do well to use that name... that name of Jesus...

Frank: Well, one of the things that we need to do is listen to Jesus, and this is what I tell a lot of people, if you say you love Jesus, listen to him. Listen to whom he tells you to pray to. And if he made Jehovah God's name known to the men He gave him out of the world, then we want to use that name.

(Frank hands me a printout of the following article from a Dec. 1st, 2004 edition of the Watchtower about the accuracy of the NWT.)

A “Remarkably Good” Translation

ACCORDING to one count, as many as 55 new English translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were published between 1952 and 1990. Translators’ choices mean that no two read alike. In order to assess the reliability of the translators’ work, Jason BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University, in Flagstaff, Arizona, U.S.A., examined and compared for accuracy eight major translations, including the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses. The result?

While critical of some of its translation choices, BeDuhn called the New World Translation a “remarkably good” translation, “better by far” and “consistently better” than some of the others considered. Overall, concluded BeDuhn, the New World Translation “is one of the most accurate English translations of the New Testament currently available” and “the most accurate of the translations compared.”—Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament.

BeDuhn noted, too, that many translators were subject to pressure “to paraphrase or expand on what the Bible does say in the direction of what modern readers want and need it to say.” On the other hand, the New World Translation is different, observed BeDuhn, because of “the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal, conservative translation of the original expressions of the New Testament writers.”

Chris: Okay, where's that verse where you were saying that we ought to follow Jesus' example?

Frank: One of the ones is Matthew 6:9-10. That's when he was teaching his followers to pray.

Chris: Well in this instance, he told his followers to pray "Our Father". What about the verse where you said that Jesus said that he made his name known?

Frank: Oh, okay, what scripture was that Skeet?

Skeet: Uhm, John 17:5-6

[I pull the scripture up on the screen]

“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.” —John 17:5–7 KJV

Chris: Jesus is saying that he made his name known to the men that God gave him out of the world, meaning that he's actually talking about those 11 disciples, since at this time, Judas had killed himself. So Jesus is explaining that they know his name because they've heard the Word and done it. So Jesus... I continue reading

““I have revealed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They belonged to you, and you gave them to me, and they have obeyed your word. Now they understand that everything you have given me comes from you, because I have given them the words you have given me. They accepted them and really understand that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I am praying on behalf of them. I am not praying on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those you have given me, because they belong to you. Everything I have belongs to you, and everything you have belongs to me, and I have been glorified by them.” —John 17:6–10 NET

Frank: And what did Jesus tell them to do? He sent them forth into the world.

Chris: But to make this be about the name Jehovah, is an error. He's telling God that he revealed who God was to these 11 guys. He's telling God, I've told them everything about You, about Us, about your plan to redeem mankind...

Frank: Right, and 11 disciples are close to him and this is the channel that He's using to educate people all over the world that same group that his apostles were a part of.

Chris: Well you're going to have to show me a scripture about the "organization" because....

Frank: Well you just read it Matthew 25:45-47

Chris: So you're saying that this John 17:6 and that Matthew 25:45 are the same thing.

Frank: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. His apostles. They were in the upper room when the holy spirit was poured out. That began the Christian congregation right there at Pentecost 33CE. That was the beginning of the Christian congregation. And that's when that number that's going to be ruling with Christ in Heaven, that's when that number started to be gathered. That total number is 144,000.

Chris: Yeah, I keep hearing you say that too

Frank: Yeah, Revelation 14:1

“And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.” —Revelation 14:1 NWT

Chris: Now right here, why does it say, I saw 144,000 having his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. Why didn't it say, "His Father's name, and then His name"?

Frank: (smiles and chuckles as if someone poured too much salt on his shut-up sandwich)

Chris: I'm just curious about that... And why would you even need both names, why not just the name of Jehovah and that be sufficient?

Frank: Well, just think about what Jesus said. The only way I'm going to get to God is to go through his son Jesus Christ. If I try to do it any other way, I'm just spinning my wheels and going nowhere. So how does Jehovah God and his son feel about each other. Jesus is not going to separate himself from the Father, and the Father is not separating himself from the son. So why can't we be the same. Nothing can separate us from the love of Jehovah God and his son Jesus Christ.

Chris: You just threw "Jehovah God" in there and it doesn't even say that...

Frank: No, it says it. All over the world.

Chris: You know I may not no a lot of scriptures by heart, but I know that one. It says:

“Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?” —Romans 8:35 KJV

[I'm actually laughing cracking up at the almost robotic way that Jehovah God comes out of Frank's mouth even when talking about Jesus...]

Frank: Jehovah God and Jesus...

Chris: But it doesn't say Jehovah God even in the NWT.

Frank: Look at Romans 8:39

Chris: “nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” —Romans 8:39 NET

Frank: That just tells me there that Jehovah God and Jesus Chris is so close to connecting, we can't approach Jehovah without his son Jesus Christ. And it makes sense when Jehovah God used his Son and his Son was willing to come, because we were lost up until this. We didn't have any hope until this loving God Jehovah made arrangements for his son to come down to this earth and give up his life. A perfect life, for the perfect life that was lost by Adam.

Chris: I agree. Now we left off on page 196... The question was "Why, then, have some translators left this name out of their translations of the Bible and replaced it with titles?" And I said that the NWT seems to fall into that category.

There seem to be two main reasons. First, many claim that the name should not be used because the original way to pronounce it is unknown today. Ancient Hebrew was written without vowels. Therefore, no one today can say for sure exactly how people of Bible times pronounced YHWH. However, should this prevent us from using God’s name? In Bible times, the name Jesus may have been pronounced Yeshua or possibly Yehoshua—no one can say for certain. Yet, people the world over today use different forms of the name Jesus, pronouncing it in the way that is common in their language. They do not hesitate to use the name just because they do not know its first-century pronunciation. Similarly, if you were to travel to a foreign land, you might well find that your own name sounds quite different in another tongue. Hence, uncertainty about the ancient pronunciation of God’s name is no reason for not using it.

Now earlier you said that Jesus revealed God's true name to the 11 disciples, and you said that those 11 disciples are a part of the 144,000 faithful and discreet slaves?

Frank: Yeah, they're a part of that.

Chris: So did Jesus reveal God's true name to them?

Frank: Yeah, but here's the thing. Jesus didn't reveal anything to us, but we have it. And look what...

Chris: Oh, so you're saying that the faithful and discreet slaves may know the real name of God, but they're just not telling anybody.

Frank: Yeeesss... NO, NO.. What I'm saying, Jesus trained his apostles. They went and trained others. That's why Jesus came to earth to not only give up his life for mankind, but to teach mankind about his father. And he trained these ones and they went and trained others. Look to where the apostles went and established congregations. And this is right on down to us today. That same teaching that Jesus...

Chris: But even in the early church they had gnostics and other disciples who lost their way and went and started teaching other things...

Frank: Well you know that Jesus warned his Apostles there that when they would go out the way that false religion was going to really surge. And it did when the Apostles died... You know the Apostles act as a restraint.

Chris: You know, there's a scripture that says try the spirits by the spirit [1John 4:1], do you know what I'm talking about? Because some may ask, "How do I know that this church is right or this way is right and that way is wrong?"

Frank: Okay, I know what you saying. Yeah.

Chris: And this is where I got into telling you the first time that we met, that the Holy Spirit is on the inside of me....

Frank: Well this is something when it comes to Jehovah God's Holy Spirit, He deals with us...

Chris: What I'm getting to as far as the subject we've been covering tonight, "Jehovah" vs "God" vs "Yahweh", I've learned enough to know that the bible can interpret itself and if there is anything anyone is telling me, whether it be a bishop, pope, reverend, etc, I have sense enough to know that, if that's what God is saying, He's going to confirm it in His Word. Because the scripture says that the Lord will confirm his Word with signs following [Matt 1:20]

Frank: I know what you're saying.

Chris: That what I do and what I try to do because if I'm using the bible as a source, and I don't mean a certain version of the bible, because as you can see, I use a lot of different version to help me get to the truth of the underlying Greek and Hebrew, because none of them are 100% accurate. But in the end, the Holy Spirit is going to confirm what's right and and what's wrong...

Frank: Oh yeah, It's doing that now. It's doing that now through Jehovah God's channel. Now we got a loving God and he is not going to want mankind to worship him with spirit and truth and then he hide the truth from 'em. That's why I say that he has an organization on earth today that's educating people all over the world about his will and purpose.

Chris: [with a loving, sincere, kind and sweet tone] And that's great, but tells me that the Holy Spirit will guide me into all truth. He doesn't tell me that Watchtower Bible and Tract Society or Brooklyn, New York will guide me into all truth. He doesn't tell me that the faithful and discreet slave will guide me into all truth.

Frank: Well one of the things that you can look at...

Chris: What I'm getting at is, what's YOUR final authority?

Frank: It's not no coincidence that we came here to you...

Chris: I totally agree with that...

Frank: Yeah, it's no coincidence. I see you reaching out for Jehovah God and he's drawing closer to you.

Chris: Oh yeah, No doubt about it. I told my wife that I love studying the bible... I like digging deep.

Frank: And this is it. If you can find something else out there that Jehovah God is using... This organization...

Chris: See, I'm not looking for an organization, because I've found what I'm looking for. I've found God, I've found his Son Jesus...

Frank: One of the things that you....

Chris: I don't want to back-track. I don't want to go backwards. [I said as I look into Skeet's eyes]

Frank: Yeah, you don't want to do that, but this is what I'm saying. Hook up with his channel. That's all you gotta do... Hook up with his channel, and you think that maybe you've progressed, you'll really shine when you hook up with his organization. Because there's so much encouragement in the knowledge that you've had. Just think about getting out and helping others to preach... going from door to door and getting out. It's a blessing beyond comparison. I hear a lot of the people saying... They had a group of preachers on TV the other day and they were talking about how they could combat the crime and get the young people on the right track, and guess what they said... "Well we need to get away from these four wall and get out and start knocking on doors!" Well, instead of saying that's what we should do, my goodness, Jesus set an example for us years ago, and who's doing it? Ya know. You can tell the tree by the fruit it bears. It's just something to think about.

Let's keep reading this...

Chris: Yeah, I know I keep stopping and I'm sorry y'all...

In Bible times, the name Jesus may have been pronounced Yeshua or possibly Yehoshua—no one can say for certain. Yet, people the world over today use different forms of the name Jesus, pronouncing it in the way that is common in their language. They do not hesitate to use the name just because they do not know its first-century pronunciation. Similarly, if you were to travel to a foreign land, you might well find that your own name sounds quite different in another tongue. Hence, uncertainty about the ancient pronunciation of God’s name is no reason for not using it.

You know, again, it's still double speak because you're admitting the fact that we can't be 100% certain on how to pronounce God's name, to me it seems like something that happens in a lot of churches not in just the Jehovah Witnesses...

Frank: Well, one of the things that I appreciate about Jehovah's Organization is that the truth comes out. When they say it's not sure, well they don't have it, concerning that.

Chris: Well that's my point, if you don't know, there's no need to go and make up something...

Frank: But that name is the English rendition of the Hebrew word and ...

Chris: But who is saying that besides the organization?

Frank: It's coming from the faithful steward that Jehovah God is using...

Chris: So where is he confirming his word on that point?

Frank: Right here, he's confirming it right here (pointing to his WBTS publication "What Does The Bible Really Teach")

Chris: No, not in this book, but in His actual Word. If it's true, he's going to confirm it in His Word, not in a pamphlet that I got on the side and not in some bible study...

Frank: Well I understand. You're not convinced....

Chris: Well I'm convinced that what you're saying is not backed up by scripture. See, I'm telling you, if you show it to me in the Word, you don't have to say anything else, because I've chosen as an act of faith toward God to make this my final authority on matters of life and living. But trust that I'm going to study it out to make sure that it says what men say that it says and that it says it in context, because a lot of times...

Frank: What did Jesus tell Thomas when he was resurrected? Let's look at it.

Chris: What is it, John 20:25?

Frank:

“Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and examine my hands. Extend your hand and put it into my side. Do not continue in your unbelief, but believe.” Thomas replied to him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are the people who have not seen and yet have believed.”” —John 20:27–29 NET

Chris: But he's saying blessed are the people who have not seen the resurrected body of Jesus yet they still believe that he exists and that he died and he rose again, that's what that passage is talking about right?

Frank: Yeah,

Chris: It's not saying blessed are the people who have not seen it in His Word...

Frank: But the thing about is that Thomas he knew Jesus was put to death, and he couldn't believe what the other disciples were saying about Jesus being raised from the dead... "Oh no, unless I see him..." Jesus made a very good point here because the channel that Jehovah... Jehovah God has always used certain people to educate others about his will and purpose. You can think about when Moses, when Jehovah God have him the law, then you can think about Noah. Noah was a preacher of righteousness. And anybody who didn't listen to Noah was destroyed. A lot of them had their own different views and you can come on back to Abraham, and how Joseph was used there in Egypt. And how Jehovah God used Moses. Moses went through something a lot of people who were with Moses went against him. And Moses ripped his garments apart. And as a result of all of them lifting up themselves against Moses when they said, "Why you lifting up yourself above us?" and it was a point with the earth opened up and a lot of them lost their lives. See? Then right on down to Jesus. Jehovah God was using Jesus to educate, well before him was Solomon, and Jesus taught his disciples, Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost 33CE, and this is the same channel that Jehovah God is using today. Not deviating from it, and there are a lot of false channels out there that are misleading people. They're misleading people all over the world. And that's why you are questioning right now, because you see what's going on in the world. And this is big time and time is running out for this old system of things. And Jehovah is going to bring it to an end.

Chris: So let me ask you this, since I'm looking at Exodus 27 where it says:

“You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold guiltless anyone who takes his name in vain.” —Exodus 20:7 NET

Frank: Yeah, in a worthless way. Yeah I've known some people, in fact, I think we would have still had some of the comedians around if they didn't do that. Of all of the things they could talk about -- You lay off of Jehovah God and his son Jesus Christ. You understand what I'm saying? If they want play with something, go on and grab a saber-tooth tiger, ya know or something like that, and grab a wire brush and raise his tail and go to workin' on him with a wire brush or something ya know, you'll have more success doing that than playing around with Jehovah, His name, His son Jesus Christ, yeah... As a matter of fact, it says it right here in this appendix...

A second reason often given for omitting God’s name from the Bible involves a long-standing tradition of the Jews. Many of them hold that God’s name should never be pronounced. This belief is evidently based on a misapplication of a Bible law that states: “You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave the one unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way.”—Exodus 20:7.

This law forbids the misuse of God’s name. But does it forbid the respectful use of his name? Not at all. The writers of the Hebrew Bible (the “Old Testament”) were all faithful men who lived by the Law that God gave to the ancient Israelites. Yet, they made frequent use of God’s name. For instance, they included it in many psalms that were sung out loud by crowds of worshipers. Jehovah God even instructed his worshipers to call upon his name, and faithful ones obeyed. (Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21) Hence, Christians today do not hesitate to use God’s name respectfully, as Jesus surely did.—John 17:26.

Chris: Well, even when I think about my wife, how if I call her out of her name, she'll get mad at me, so you still haven't answered the question of what makes you hold on the the one name of Jehovah, when God clearly has many names and why Yahweh seems to be way more accurate of a translation than the world Jehovah? But you say the reason you don't say Yahweh, is because the faithful and discreet slave hasn't ok'd that name yet.

Frank: They are way ahead of anything that's on the earth.

Chris: So do you realize that there is an Awake publication that came out in Spain in 1995 and in it, they admitted that the most accurate translation is indeed "Yahweh"? I'm going to see if I can find it for you and let you look at it...

Frank: Well I appreciate that...

Chris: Because I've heard you say on a number of occasions how the organization says one thing at the top and the same thing is disseminated to all the other Kingdom Halls all over the world.

Frank: Well Jehovah has his channel of educating his people all over the world, and he's not using a whole bunch. He has an organization. And if we attach ourselves to that organization or if Jehovah allows us to be attached to that organization, we got a good future ahead of us.

Chris: I'm just wondering how it can be said that Yahweh is the most accurate translation in a Spanish language awake magazine over there, but over here it's still "Jehovah"...

Frank: Well as I said, Jehovah is pleased with that name.

Chris: Well you say it all the time, but is it in scripture though? Now what I do see in the bible is that he's please with the name he's placed above every other name.

Skeet: (whispering again) Ezekiel 36:23.

Chris: Let's look at it... (of course this only supports their argument if you read it the NWT)

“I will magnify my great name that has been profaned among the nations, that you have profaned among them. The nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the sovereign LORD, when I magnify myself among you in their sight.” —Ezekiel 36:23 NET

“And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.” —Ezekiel 36:23 KJV

“‘And I shall certainly sanctify my great name, which was being profaned among the nations, which YOU profaned in the midst of them; and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘when I am sanctified among YOU before their eyes.” —Ezekiel 36:23 NWT

So that word is the same word that I've been talking about all night "YHWH".

Frank: Well, Yahweh is an appropriate name, we can't get around that.

Chris: But what happened with the NWT that made your translators put in "Jehovah" all over the place, as opposed to "Yahweh"?

Frank: Well just like it says, it's the English rendition of the Hebrew word.

Chris: But you do realize that in the KJV, the English translation of that Hebrew world was "LORD".

Frank: In some of them...

Chris: No No, I'm talking about in the King James Version. So what I'm seeing that has happened is that the translators of the New World Translation saw the same thing I'm seeing, saw all of this "LORD" business, so instead of correcting it to "YAHWEH", they changed it from "LORD" to "Jehovah".

Frank: Well, like I say, the English rendition of that Word.

Chris: But that argument can be made about the KJV. We could say that "LORD" is the English translation of "YHWH".

Frank: Okay.

Chris: So we left off here...

God himself explained the meaning of his name to his faithful servant Moses. When Moses asked about God’s name, Jehovah replied: “I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be.” (Exodus 3:14) Rotherham’s translation renders those words: “I Will Become whatsoever I please.” So Jehovah can become whatever is needed in order to fulfill his purposes.

So I agree with that, and the King James reads, "I AM THAT I AM" right?

Frank: Yep.

Chris: I just don't see the scripture in the place saying "I AM Jehovah". And what about the other names of God like Jehovah-Elohim, Jehovah-Jireh, Jehovah-Nissi, Jehovah-Shalom?

Frank: Well, these are names of places... In fact, Jehovah-Jireh was the place where Abraham was about to offer up Isaac, and he called that place Jehovah-Jireh....

Chris: Because God provided a sacrifice, so what that scripture is saying, "I AM THAT I AM", God became Yahweh the provider in that case.

Frank: Okay and those other names they were places where they erected things...

Chris: Because in those places, God became their peace or their healer because he became different things in those Jews in those places.

Frank: I won't go against that, no.

Chris: Your book goes on to say...

Suppose that you could become whatever you wanted to become. What would you do for your friends? If one of them became seriously ill, you could become a skilled doctor and perform a cure. If another suffered a financial loss, you could become a wealthy benefactor and come to his rescue. The truth is, though, that you are limited in what you can become. All of us are. As you study the Bible, you will be amazed to see how Jehovah becomes whatever is needed in order to fulfill his promises. And it pleases him to use his power in behalf of those who love him. (2 Chronicles 16:9) These beautiful facets of Jehovah’s personality are lost to those who do not know his name.

Again, I don't totally agree with the statement we are limited to what we can become.

Frank: Yeah, we are limited. Jeremiah 10:23 says its not up to man that's walking to direct his next step. [NWT] We are limited to what we can do...

Chris: Did you know that we could God?

Frank: [as he jumps back in the seat and cocks his head like a puppy] Hmm?!

Chris: [laughs]

Frank: How you mean limit him?

Chris: It's amazing to me to, but let's look at it. It's in here and I'm not making it up...

Frank: If you're saying that we can limit him on what he gonna do for us,...

Chris: This is getting back to one of the first things that popped out Jehovah Witnesses when we first started this bible study. It seems as if JW's downplay the same authority that Jesus said that he had back in Matthew 28, we don't seem to connect that to us as having that same authority.

“Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.” —Psalms 78:41 KJV

Frank: So what in that scripture have you thinking that we can limit Jehovah?

Chris: By turning away from him. In other words, God can want to do something in our lives...

Frank: Oh yeah, I see what you're saying there, but then if we don't work in harmony with his arrangement of things, it's up to Him whether he want to do it or not...

Chris: If God wanted to bless me with a good job right now today, He wanted to give me the job that I wanted for my family today, but I said, I don't want your help, I want to stick with what I got and what I'm learning and this is what I believe, I don't believe that you want be to prosper. You know some people think that God wants them to live a life of poverty. So, what if God needed you and wanted you to become a wealthy benefactor as we read in your book, but because of some teaching that you have about God wanting you to live a life of poverty, you don't think it's His will for you to be healthy, wealthy, and prosperous. So even if God wanted to bless you, He can't, because you've decided that you don't want His help. You can tell God, "I don't want your help", and you've there for limited Almighty God as to what he can do in your life. The God we say can do ANYTHING. Because He's Love, He's given us free will and all of these people that you go around trying to minister to all day. You say that you're going around trying to give them a message of hope, but if they don't want it, they don't want it. They've turned their back on you and shut the door. God is not going to force His way on them.

Frank: Well one of the things that we're going to have to keep in mind is that Jehovah, as we brought earlier, doesn't have to explain anything to us. And another thing. Jehovah God's thinking and his ways is so much higher above ours as the heavens is above the earth, so how could you say your reasoning on a matter could say what Jehovah would or wouldn't do. If his thinking and his way is so much higher than ours, how could you say what he's going to do, and we come up with our little old puny thinking on the matter... I don't whether the Apostle Paul, whether he wanted to go in the direction he was going in when he was persecuting the Christians. But when that light shone from Heaven shone down on him, I think he had some different thinking on the matter.

Chris: But he still had to choose to do what he did. The only question Jesus asked him on the Demascus Road was why was he doing what he was doing, so the question that he could ask us today sitting here is, Why are we doing what we're doing?

Frank: Oh yeah. But one thing that we can think about the bible, in 2Tim 3:16, “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” —2 Timothy 3:16–17 NWT

Chris: And it's so much information in the bible, that without software, I don't know how the early Christians did it...

Frank: Well this is one thing that Jehovah's Organization has narrowed it down to where you can worship Jehovah God in an acceptable way...

Chris: Acceptable to who?

Frank: Him.

Chris: Acceptable to God?

Frank: Yeah this is Jehovah God's channel of educating. It's good for us to do reasearch, there's nothing wrong with that, but to spend too much time on a matter, ya know. Just like you say, you like the name Yahweh, which is a good name, which is Jehovah in the Hebrew scriptures. But channel that God is using has already researched to see that the English rendition of that name is Jehovah. I don't have to spend time going back, doing research because I'm wasting a lot of time, when I can be learning more about Jehovah God, and doing his will. So, the only thing I'm saying is ya know, we don't want a few words to get us hung up. Because He's a loving God Jehovah. I'm 'bout like the Apostle Peter and the Apostle Paul. I'm a bold witness of Jehovah and His Son Jesus Christ. I see his Holy Spirit working through us.

Chris: And in that same light, you just said it again, you said that are a bold witness for Jehovah. That's not what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to be a bold witness for Jesus Christ.

Frank: Well who was Jesus witnessing for? For His father. In fact He instructed His followers, he just directed them to His father, when he would pray, he would always pray to his Father.

Chris: But see, we have no other way except through Jesus Christ.

Frank: [emphatically] RIGHT!

Chris: So what we have to do as Christ-followers, we're supposed to direct people back to Jesus so that they can get access to the Father. Because they can't get to the Father any other way.

Frank: Well that's make sense what you're saying. Because we're directing them to follow Jesus example.

Chris: Because we shouldn't give unbelievers the false impression that they can get to God without Jesus.

Frank: Ain't no way that they can get to Jehovah without going through Jesus. That's known. In fact if anyone tries to go around Jesus they're spinning their wheels and going no where.

Chris: The last part of this page that we're reading continues....

Clearly, the name Jehovah belongs in the Bible. Knowing its meaning and using it freely in our worship are powerful aids in drawing closer to our heavenly Father, Jehovah.

Now something about that is just not sitting right with me...

(Note: After praying about it later, the Holy Spirit reminded me that I don't even call my natural daddy by his first name so why would I hold Father God in such disrespect. My momma and my daddy would have a cow if I called either of them by their first name. The same was true in Jewish culture and Jesus told us to pray, "Our Father".)

Frank: See that asterisk there? For more information on God’s name, its meaning, and reasons why it should be used in worship, see the brochure The Divine Name That Will Endure Forever, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Chris: Well, do you have a copy of that? Because I read ahead to see what we were going to be talking about tonight so that I could prepare myself, but what I believe is what I believe based on God's Word and revelation by the Holy Spirit. Not something I read in a theology or even heard from another preacher somewhere. Even those things I hear have to measure up to the scrutiny of God's Word and His Holy Spirit.

Because I refuse to be deceived. But I do appreciate your time and I thank you for coming by and sharing.

And Skeet, nice to meet you. I hope I didn't bore you...

Frank: Well, okay. We'll petition Jehovah.

All wise everlasting God Jehovah in Jesus name, we humbly approach your lofty throne of undeserved kindness at this time. Thanking you Jehovah for the many wonderful blessings that bestow upon us. We thank you for making it possible for us again to be in the home of Chris to have another study of your Word the Bible by means of the Bible Teach book. As always Jehovah as we cover information, we want to ponder over and see how we can use it to further bring honor and praise to your rich and holy name. We ask you to please be with Chris and his household and strengthen him build him up please in the way that you would have him to go. Jehovah, we really see that he's really interested in the Truth of your Word the Bible and He doesn't want to be deceived and that's definitely good because we definitely want to check out things concerning You to where we can all get in line to worship you with spirit and truth. So please be with him and strengthen him build him up in the way that you would have him to go. Jehovah, we love you and we want to do your will, so please be with us in such a way that we can do this more fully. we do fall short of coming up to your righteous standards from time to time. We ask you to please forgive us and at the same time strengthen us. And now Jehovah as we prepare to do other things, we turn all of our lives into your care. These and other blessings we ask in your son Jesus name, Amen.

Chris: Well thank you kind sirs, and thank you for you time.

Frank: We enjoyed it.

Chris: Thank you for your knowledge.

Frank: We certainly enjoy your setup there, that's nice.

Chris: Well thank you. Y'all be careful out there.

The Curse of Ham and what Ham Actually Saw

2010-03-17T04:34:00.003-04:00

What the heck is 'Thy Father's Nakedness'?

Genesis 9:22-26

There has been a lot of confusion about this seemingly over-reaction of Noah, just because his son Ham saw him naked. However, few translators of the bible seem to want to consider or recognize what the bible seems to point to as really happening.

The first thing we have to ask the bible is, "What is 'thy father's nakedness' ". Leviticus 18:8 tells us the answer just as plain as day...

Lev. 18:8 You must not have sexual intercourse with your father's wife; she is your father's nakedness.

Then we have to look at why Noah was mad, who he was mad at, and who he cursed. It wasn't Ham, it was Ham's son, Canaan. Noah didn't say, "Cursed be Ham", he said "Cursed be Canaan". Additionally, if Ham was indeed the younger son, it would have listed Noah's sons in the order of birth. And according to verse 18, Ham was the middle son, while Japeth was the younger son. So when the bible speaks of "his youngest son" in verse 24, this is really his "grandson".

Which blows away another long held CRAZY belief of some bible students, especially in the south, that the black race was cursed because of this and this is why black people's skin is black. CRAZY I tell ya, but I'll make a separate note about that...

The point I'm trying to clear up here though is that Ham walked in and caught Canaan having sex with his grandma, either that or something worse! Ham didn't want to see his mother's naked body or his father's naked body for sure, and that's why he and his brother walked in backwards to cover "his father's nakedness" whatever it really was, but it was deeper than that. It's as if Canaan took advantage of the fact that Grandad was knocked out drunk and got it on with his grandma, or as I alluded to earlier, something worse. Sure, it's foul and it's rank, and we as "Holy'er than thou" Christians, wouldn't even think of such of a thing, but surely you can understand why Noah was soooo freaking mad at this guy.

Were black people cursed because of this episode in the bible?

Genesis 9:20-24

This may seem foreign to some people, but there are still people out there that think that the black race was cursed because Noah cursed Canaan, the son of Ham, because Ham say Noah naked.

Here is what you can find on Wikipedia, when looking at the article "Curse of Ham":

The "curse of Ham" had been used by some members of Abrahamic religions to justify racism and the enslavement of people of Black African ancestry, who were believed to be descendants of Ham. They were often called Hamites and were believed to have descended through Canaan or his older brothers. This racist theory was widely held during the 18th-20th centuries, but it has been largely abandoned since the mid-20th century.

As mentioned in a previous contribution, we have to look at why Noah was mad, who he was mad at, and who he cursed. It wasn't Ham, it was Ham's son, Canaan. Noah didn't say, "Cursed be Ham", he said "Cursed be Canaan". Additionally, if Ham was indeed the younger son, it would have listed Noah's sons in the order of birth. And according to verse 18, Ham was the middle son, while Japeth was the younger son. So when the bible speaks of "his youngest son" in verse 24, this is really his "grandson", Canaan, who he actually cursed.

So, if you're black like me, and happen to have an inferiority complex because of what others (the devil) has said by means of this passage of scripture, you are now free from your chains.

Chris' Alt Version of this Passage

Gen. 9:20

Noah, who as a farmer, was the first one to plant a vineyard (the kind of vineyards that grow grapes to make wine).

Gen. 9:21
And of course, since he was the first to do it, he partook of the fruit of his labor. (Since he didn't invent refrigeration along with it, there was an abundance of fermented grapes (wine/alcohol). Thus he tended to drink so much that he would often end up drunk and passed out and laying in his tent.

Gen. 9:22
One day, Ham, Canaan's daddy, saw his son having sex with his grandma, Noah's wife. Surely he was shocked, and he ran out and told his two brothers who were outside.

Gen. 9:23
Ham's brothers, Shem and Japeth, took a sheet, probably a large animal skin, and held it between them on their shoulders as they walked backwards to cover up what was going on. They kept their heads turned because they did not want to even see what was going on.

Gen. 9:24

When Noah woke up from his hangover, he found out what his grandson had done.

Gen. 9:25
Noah cursed out Canaan, and said, "You will be a slave to your uncles, Shem and Japeth. You're going to do whatever they say for now on.

Gen. 9:26
"The God of Shem (who just happens to be the firstborn, oldest son) is worthy to be praised, but Canaan, that will be his slave."

Gen. 9:27
While blessing the oldest, Noah skips over the middle child Ham, and goes on blessing Jepeth, the youngest, saying "God, make Japeth so wealthy that his possesions, children, and grandchildren live in and near Shem's area, so that Canaan can be his slave too.

Meeting 2, December 07, 2009: Rough T...

2010-03-11T00:28:00.008-05:00

Meeting 2, December 07, 2009: Rough Transcript

(Note: Everything in block quotes are quotes either from the Watchtower Publication "What Does the Bible Really Teach", or quotes from the bible text used in my copy of Accordance Bible Software. Additionally, I ask that when you read the exchange from Frank and Dank (names changed to protect the innocent) don't prejudge them as representing an evil organization. The only alterior motive that they may have is to hopefully get me to be baptized into the organization, but that in and of itself, doesn't make them evil (and of course, I've already been baptised into Jesus). Our fight is not against flesh and blood people, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens. -Ephesians 6:12. Frank and Dank genuinely believe that they have the truth and they want to share that truth that they believe, and some of it really is the truth. But as we'll read in later transcripts, truth is always confirmed by God, so all of us believe something. It's just a matter of whether it gels with what God actually says or not. In the end, I hope that I'm able to share some light with them as they challenge me to confirm whether or not what I believe is true according to scripture.)

Frank:

Is This What God Purposed?

READ any newspaper. Look at television, or listen to the radio. There are so many stories of crime, war, and terrorism! Think about your own troubles. Perhaps illness or the death of a loved one is causing you great distress. You may feel like the good man Job, who said that he was “drenched with misery.”—Job 10:15, The Holy Bible in the Language of Today.

Ask yourself:
▪ Is this what God purposed for me and for the rest of mankind?
▪ Where can I find help to cope with my problems?
▪ Is there any hope that we will ever see peace on the earth?
The Bible provides satisfying answers to these questions.

Now lets look over to the next place, Chris.

Chris: (chuckling) Yeah, I think this is where we-- I don't think we got past last time!

Frank: Yeah! And all of these things - this is what the bible teaches and we've got the scriptures - these are hope, this [is] a beautiful hope here that we can look forward to and it helps us to appreciate it. This ain't no pipe dream ya know. These things - if Jehovah God - if you had someone to tell you the truth for so long, if he told you something else, would you have any reason to doubt him? If he told you the truth every time, and then told you something else would you have any reason to doubt?

Chris: Oh no.. not at all...

Frank:

BENEFIT FROM WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES

Do not quickly dismiss what is presented on the preceding pages as mere wishful thinking. God has promised to bring these things about, and the Bible explains how he will do so.

But the Bible does more than that. It provides the key to your enjoying a truly satisfying life even now. Think for a moment about your own anxieties and troubles. They may include money matters, family problems, loss of health, or the death of a loved one. The Bible can help you to deal with problems today, and it can provide relief by answering such questions as these:

▪ Why do we suffer?
▪ How can we cope with life’s anxieties?
▪ How can we make our family life happier?
▪ What happens to us when we die?
▪ Will we ever see our dead loved ones again?
▪ How can we be sure that God will fulfill his promises for the future?

These are some pretty good questions that we need answered. I know when I first studied, anything to do with death, man, I wanted to know about it ya know, and I got some satisfying answers to those questions. Helping us to appreciate where different ones spoke about it [death] like Jesus, what he said about death, the Apostle Paul, and the ressurection... it gave me a lotta hope.

The fact that you are reading this book shows that you would like to find out what the Bible teaches. This book will help you. Notice that the paragraphs have corresponding questions at the bottom of the page.

And it also goes over how to get to know the bible, which you already know all of that. And um, you know about the books of the Bible, the Hebrew and the Greek, so lets turn over to chapter one. Now it says:

What Is the Truth About God?

Now you see these questions:

Does God really care about you?
What is God like? Does he have a name?
Is it possible to get close to God?

Chris: Mmm Hmm

Frank: Now what we want to do as we go through this chapter...

Chris: Mmm Hmm... Answer those questions?

Frank: Yeah. Just listen out for the answers. So if you will um, Chris how 'bout um -- and see the questions at the bottom? As we read the paragraph, we're going to ask these questions, so we going to read [paragraphs 1 and 2]. The question [at the bottom of the page] is "Why is it often good to ask questions? So we're going to find the answers in --

Chris: -- oh in the first two paragraphs?

Frank: Yeah, so how 'bout reading paragraphs 1 and 2 and we'll just alternate with the reading.

Chris: Ok.. So...

HAVE you ever noticed the way children ask questions? Many start asking as soon as they learn to speak. With wide, eager eyes, they look up at you and ask such things as: Why is the sky blue? What are the stars made of? Who taught the birds to sing? You may try hard to answer, but it is not always easy. Even your best answer may lead to yet another question: Why?

2 Children are not the only ones who ask questions. As we grow up, we keep asking. We do this in order to find our way, to learn of dangers that we need to avoid, or to satisfy our curiosity. But many people seem to stop asking questions, especially the most important ones. At least, they stop searching for the answers.

Frank: Yes... So paragraphs one and two, why is it often good to ask questions?

Chris: Just to satisfy curiosity and avoid danger.

Frank: Yes. Yes. Okay, let's go on to paragraph three. Dank, you wanna read that one?

Dank: Of course...

3 Think about the question on the cover of this book, the questions raised in the preface, or those at the beginning of this chapter. These are some of the most important questions you can ask. Yet, many people have given up trying to find the answers. Why? Does the Bible have the answers? Some feel that its answers are too hard to understand. Others worry that asking questions could lead to shame or embarrassment. And some decide that such questions are best left to religious leaders and teachers. What about you?

Frank: Well okay, for paragraph 3, Why do many stop trying to find answers to the questions that matter most?

Chris: Well I find that a lot of people don't even want to talk about it because they don't know and a lot of times, they don't know what's true. Especially, when trying to read the King James version of the bible a lot of times. The language is so arcane to them.

Frank: What is another reason though, that some people might not want to ask questions?

(Note: I forgot that I was supposed to stick to the format or script so-to-speak.)

Chris: Well like we just read, there's a lot of different reasons...

Frank: Can ya think about somebody not sure of themselves? And they may feel what?...

Chris: Shame.

Frank: Yeah. Shame and embarrassment see. And this is something that we try to encourage. Especially when we find some who's not really sure of themselves. And it's showing another thing. It's showing love, ya know. Because we all need help. So paragraph 4 and 5 says:

4 Very likely you are interested in getting answers to life’s big questions. No doubt you sometimes wonder: ‘What is the purpose of life? Is this life all there is? What is God really like?’ It is good to ask such questions, and it is important that you do not give up until you find satisfying, reliable answers. The famous teacher Jesus Christ said: “Keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you.”—Matthew 7:7.

5 If you “keep on seeking” for answers to the important questions, you will find that the search can be very rewarding. (Proverbs 2:1-5) Despite what other people may have told you, there are answers, and you can find them—in the Bible. The answers are not too hard to understand. Better yet, they bring hope and joy. And they can help you to live a satisfying life right now. To begin, let us consider a question that has troubled many people.

So the question for 4 and 5 is, "What are some of the most important questions we can ask in life and why should we seek the answers?"

Chris: Oh yeah, "[What is the] purpose of life?" and "What is God really like?"

Frank: Yeah, and why should we seek the answers to these questions?

Chris: Well, in here it says, to bring hope and joy and that's a good answer, but uhm, and I wanted to look up this verse, Proverbs 2:1...

Frank: Yeah, Yeah, we want to read that, Proverbs 2:1-5. It helps you to appreciate that the search for answers can be very rewarding.

(We all silently read the passage in different versions on the screen):

“MY SON, if you will receive my words and treasure up my commandments within you, Making your ear attentive to skillful and godly Wisdom and inclining and directing your heart and mind to understanding [applying all your powers to the quest for it]; Yes, if you cry out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, If you seek [Wisdom] as for silver and search for skillful and godly Wisdom as for hidden treasures, Then you will understand the reverent and worshipful fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of [our omniscient] God.” —Proverbs 2:1–5 AMP

Frank: So you see how those verses are beneficial to us?

Chris: So, if I were to answer this [question], "Why should we seek the answers?", And according to Proverbs 2:1-5, the reason we should seek the answers would be to get Godly wisdom. Well, it says [in the Amplified Version] skillful and Godly wisdom, which tells me there can be other kinds of wisdom - ungodly wisdom and unskillful wisdom.

Frank: (sinks back in the sofa and looks up towards the ceiling, pondering what I just said) Ungodly wisdom...

Chris: Because he qualified wisdom by saying it was godly wisdom. If it was just wisdom, if all wisdom was good, he wouldn't have to say "godly wisdom".

Frank: Oh, okay. Okay, I see what you saying, because if you talk about the wisdom of the world, we'd say it's foolishness with God (a quotation from 1 Corinthians 3:19)

Chris: Exactly

Frank: Very good point...

Dank: He's sharp!

Frank: (chuckles)

Chris: Because I talk with people all the time, and we talked about this last time, that there's a way that seems right to a man, but to God, it's foolishness (a mangled quotation from Proverbs 16:25, and 14:12, which actually reads "...but the end thereof are the ways of death")

And then of course, the first answer I would have given when [the book] asks "Why should we seek the answers, the first verse that popped in my head was, "...to have and enjoy life". That's John 10:10. But anyway...

Dank: And one thing to, if you notice another appropriate scripture is Mathew 7:7 that's quoted right there. It says, "keep on asking". Because this is what Jesus said, "and just keep on knocking and it will be open to you". So he's imploring us to keep on asking, keep on knocking, and keep on digging. Just like when you read in Proverbs... to search for it like it was a treasure. That means that we have to do what you evidently do, dig deep into the scripture, and it say that we can get the knowledge of God - yours says the "wisdom [of God]", but ours says the "knowledge of God" which is the same thing.

(Note: Dank was noting the differences in the New World Translation of the bible when compared to the other versions that I had on the screen at the time, The New English Translation, The King James Version, the Amplified Bible, and the Message Bible. After listening to the recording, I should have pointed out that wisdom and knowledge are not the same thing, because there are a lot of people that know about God and know some of the things that God knows, but yet aren't wise. Wisdom = knowledge + understanding + application. All most people need to have knowledge is a book or a dictionary)

Frank: And this brings something out, you know that this "looking deeper" - what does this tell us about our Creator and what kind of God he his? Can you see love in that he's wanting us to know these things?

Ok, Chris. This brings us to the subheading, "Is God Uncaring and Hard-Hearted?" How about reading that for us...

6 Many people think that the answer to that question is yes. ‘If God cared,’ they reason, ‘would not the world be a very different place?’ We look around and see a world full of war, hatred, and misery. And as individuals, we get sick, we suffer, we lose loved ones in death. Thus, many say, ‘If God cared about us and our problems, would he not prevent such things from happening?’

...and this is where we agreed, and I've always believed even before I really got into the Word and coming up as a child. I kinda had sense enough to know, that if God is good, and God is good all the time, God is love, then all of this [evil] stuff ain't God. That just made sense to my mind. You know if little child got ran over by a bus, -- well God didn't have no plan for that! God didn't "will" that. As I told you, the churches I grew up in, said that "All things work together..." I said, come on now, don't start with that... And I think that's what discredits us as believers, as followers, as Christians, is when we try to make up stuff and try to give God a reason why stuff happened, when there [clearly] is sin in the earth. So, that's one of my pet peeves when I'm talking with people and they start talking about, "Well, if God wanted me have it, he would let be a certain way".

Frank: Yeah, that's a good point you're bringing out there. One of the things that we don't have to do is try to make up or help Jehovah out. His Word can stand on its own.

Chris: ...if we read it and we don't take it out of context, we'll be alright.

Frank: Yeah, Yeah. Okay, so this question for paragraph six; "Why do many people think God is uncaring, when it comes to human suffering?"

Chris: Oh yeah, because it seems like he lets things happen, but what I always tell people is, "God allows what we allow". You know, He's in Heaven, and I think this is what we were talking about last time - or how I got off into how I was saying that God gave us authority and dominion; and thats actually in Genesis.

Frank: Okay, when you mean when he gave us free will? Is that what you were talking about?

Chris: Well, yeah, he gave us free will but he actually gave us dominion.

Frank: Dominion over the animals?

Chris: Right,

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth,

And that's the operative clause right there, dominion over all the earth.

and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” —Genesis 1:26 KJV

So it seems to me, God created the earth and He gave [us] dominion, and that word "dominion" is the Hebrew word "radah". So that word means, prevail against, reign and rule. So if he's given us reign and rule over the earth, we need to know what that is and how to operate it. Because He said it and so I need to know if we're supposed to have dominion and he gave it to us and it says it right here in Genesis 1:26...

Frank: Well..., one of the things to keep in mind Chris is that when he gave us that, our first parents were perfect.

Chris: Well, naw, he gave it to Adam.

Frank: That's what it said when it said “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it,” (—Genesis 1:28 NWT.) See he had um, what His purpose was for Adam and Eve to fill the earth with righteous people, because that's the way they were. But then when they sinned, they lost a lot of things. Think about it, when Adam was -- Jehovah God was bringing animals to Adam for Adam to give them a name and that was all of the animals. He didn't have any fear of the animals and they didn't have any fear of him. What happened when they sinned? Then they lost that perfection.

Chris: Right, and so, that's why the second Adam came - Jesus.

Frank: Jesus - yeah, to make things right, but one of the things -- when Jesus came he was perfect. But mankind is in a death state right now, but Jehovah God has in the future... but Jesus made it possible now for us to gain back what Adam lost, but right now regardless of everything that we can do, although we have dominion over the animals - we probably can go out and kill 'em, but it's unlike the way Jehovah God has-- from the beginning it was his purpose...

Chris: Yeah, but see, God is everlasting and he changes not... In other words he doesn't change his mind. He doesn't say, "I'ma give 'em dominion now, but they sinned, so we can't give 'em dominion again." In other words, His perfect plan was for us to have dominion right?

Frank: Yeah, and live forever, and be in perfect health, but we fell short.

Chris: Now I remember us going over that scripture last week, that was Matthew...? It was one of the first scriptures that you mentioned to me last week, it was Matthew something...

Frank: Was it concerning our first parents?

Chris: No. I forgot what we were actually talking about, but it'll come back to me. But uhm, where were we, number 6?

Frank: Yeah number 6, so the question for number 6, "Why do many people think that God is uncaring when it comes to human suffering? Yeah, you answered that, didn't you.

Chris: Yeah, and that's why I was saying that it's the way we [as Christians] portray God. And even some people who aren't Christians, but it's just something they've heard all their lives, growing up.

Frank: You're right. That is so true, and I've heard people say too, Chris, "Well, my father believed this, and my mother believed this and I'm a bone or a stump-knocker or whatever and this is seasoning to me and I'm gonna be that way". Well, that's a sad way to be. I think about how my mother and father would tell us things. And I would check it out and see whether it was true. I remember one time and there was a incident they was talking about Jesus when he was baptized, and a lot of preachers would say, "It's a dove, the spirit as a dove came and landed on Jesus' shoulder". So I -- when I got to reading the bible I didn't see where it said that it landed on his shoulder, it said it descended upon him. I explained that to my father, I remembered that and I said, "See what the Bible says daddy?". But people come up, like you said, with different views... Let's get paragraph 7, you read the last one didn't you.

Chris: hmm hmm

Frank: Dank, how about paragraph seven.

Dank:

7 Worse yet, religious teachers sometimes lead people to think that God is hardhearted. How so? When tragedy strikes, they say that it is God’s will. In effect, such teachers blame God for the bad things that happen. Is that the truth about God? What does the Bible really teach? James 1:13 answers: “When under trial, let no one say: ‘I am being tried by God.’ For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.” So God is never the source of the wickedness you see in the world around you. (Job 34:10-12) Granted, he does allow bad things to happen. But there is a big difference between allowing something to happen and causing it.

Frank: So we got an "a" and a "b" question for paragraph 7. "How have religious teachers led many to think that God is hard-hearted?"

Chris: Well, just by saying it. They say, "well God did it", or "he won't put no more on you than you can bear". That's another good one.

Frank: And what does James 1:13 help to bring out?

Chris: It says, "Let no man say, when he is tempted, tested, and tried, that he's tempted, tested and tried by God." -James 1:13 Chris' Alt Version

Frank: Right, Right, being a God of love. But let's look at Job 34:10-12. You wanna read that Chris?

Chris: Yeah, I'm gonna read it out of this New English Translation.

“Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, from the Almighty to do evil. For he repays a person for his work, and according to the conduct of a person, he causes the consequences to find him. Indeed, in truth, God does not act wickedly, and the Almighty does not pervert justice.” —Job 34:10–12 NET

Frank: Yep, that was some good counsel coming from...

Chris: That was from Elihu, wasn't it?

Frank: Yeah, .... these three comfortors...

Chris: ...they were all just terrible...

Frank: ...yeah, they were supposed to be comforting Job...

Chris: ...I like when God came in there and said, "Who is this talking 'bout stuff that they don't know what they talkin' 'bout?" - Job 38:2 Chris' Alt Version

Frank: Isn't that something? (everyone laughs) I tell you what, that's a beautiful thing there what Jehovah God was asking him, talking about some of the animals and we look in the world to day and we associate...

Chris: Basically, what he was doing, He was just reminding Job that Job didn't create nothin'. But one thing I can appreciate, actually, the book of Job, that's one of the first books of the bible that I really actually delved into and studied, because for years... You know we hear people say, especially at funerals, "The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away" And while its true that that's in the bible, God didn't say that. That was Job talking, and Job was saying that out of his -- I mean, he was hurt. He was sick, he had lost everything, and so, what a lot of people don't realize, is that Job didn't have a revelation of Satan and there was no need for Job to have a revelation of Satan, because there was nothing that Job could do about it, so everything that happend to Job, he figured it was all God. But now in this dispensation, and after Jesus died and rose again, we have a revelation of Satan, because Jesus told us that "the thief comes to steal kill and destroy, but I've come that you may have life and life more abundantly"

Frank: Very good, very good. And that's why its so important for us to do like you're doing, to read and study the scriptures, because just like 2nd Timothy brings out, “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” —2 Timothy 3:16,17 NWT And it brings it all out, and I tell a lot of people that this is our manual. You get your automobile and they give you a manual, and you use it right and you can take care of your automobile. And this is the way this is. We apply everything that's in the scriptures here and we benefit ourselves. Okay, we've got the "a" part there, the "b" part, "What does the bible really teach about the trials we may suffer?".

Chris: Now, in here, according to what's written here in this [Bible Teach] book, it's teaching that God's allowing and that he's not causing it. Right?

Frank: Yeah

Chris: But, just as a side note, what would you say to someone when they ask, "Why is God allowing it?".

Frank: Yeah, Yeah, we'll get to that, yeah, we'll get to that. Yeah, we'll definitely cover it and you'll see it and get a GOOD picture of it. Yeah...

Chris: okay...

Frank: Okay, let's see.... Dank, you read that, uhm, paragraph 8 and 9:

8 For example, think about a wise and loving father with a grown son who is still living at home with his parents. When the son becomes rebellious and decides to leave home, his father does not stop him. The son pursues a bad way of life and gets into trouble. Is the father the cause of his son’s problems? No. (Luke 15:11-13) Similarly, God has not stopped humans when they have chosen to pursue a bad course, but he is not the cause of the problems that have resulted. Surely, then, it would be unfair to blame God for all the troubles of mankind.

9 God has good reasons for allowing mankind to follow a bad course. As our wise and powerful Creator, he does not have to explain his reasons to us. Out of love, however, God does this. You will learn more about these reasons in Chapter 11. But rest assured that God is not responsible for the problems we face. On the contrary, he gives us the only hope for a solution!—Isaiah 33:2.

So paragraphs 8 and 9, we got an "A" and "B" question. "How might you illustrate the difference between allowing wickedness to exist and causing it.

Chris: I use a similar example when I'm talking with people. This house I'm living in is a house that we rent from somebody. I used to rent one of my properties in Birmingham, I'm from Birmingham, AL. I used to rent my house out to this guy. Now it's still my house, and I rent it out to him. I give him dominion and control over what's going to go on with that house, according to the lease. But if he lets people come in and out of the house and smoke dope, smoke whatever, or punch holes in walls, one, I don't know about it and I can't do anything about it because I gave him control over it...

Frank: You allowing it to happen...

Chris: Yeah, and he's a grown man and he pays his rent, and he's doing the things that I told him needs to be done as far as the lease is concerned, but he still has control over that property, because I'm in another state.

Frank: Right, and if something comes up and the authorities go in there and find drugs or anything in your house, they couldn't come back blaming you for it.

Dank: Right

Chris: They have to take him to jail

Frank: This is a good example, that's a good illustration.

Chris: But, after he goes to jail, now I gotta go back in there and clean up the mess and that's what God is going to do at the end. He's going to come back and renovate this place for us and we're going to come back here and dwell.

Frank: Yes, there's definitely a difference between allowing something and causing it. Just like that father is not responsible for that son wanting to go out on his own and do things.

Chris: And, this - I'm getting back to what we were talking about earlier, because I just can't help it--. People say a lot of times, "Well he's God, he's almighty, he's powerful, can't he stop it?" Well, he can because he's powerful, but in His sovereignty, he's given us the authority and dominion. Jesus was telling his disciples, "Why don't you pray that the Lord send some people down here to bring in the harvest?" Well God knows that we need to save souls, why don't he just send them? Why do we have to pray for him to send them? Where is that scripture?

Frank: I know what you talking about

Chris: Well I don't want to get off [topic]...

Dank: We use that a lot about "beg the master to send out more workers"--[NWT], but the thing of is though is that what we've learned, and I think we're going to probably cover it, and I think you're going to be reasonable, when we get to it in this context about why doesn't God go ahead and do something about it, now. Well, God has a reason. You're going to find out that God has a reason for allowing suffering. He has a reason for allowing it to go on for a while. He has a timetable of his own when he's going to decide to do it and why. The reason is profound and has a powerful impact.

(Spoiler Alert: The "Bible Teach" book essentially teaches that since satan showed his butt in front of the whole host of heaven, God is allowing things to run it's course to show the angels that satan was wrong. I haven't found any support for this theory in the bible. The answer found in the bible about "Why?" is simply, to use the illustration about the rental, if I gave the guy authority to use the house and we're in covenant, I can't legally come in there and run the house that he's still in. Jesus said, “I tell you the solemn truth, the one who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a robber. The one who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.” —John 10:1–2 NET. God sent Jesus into the "sheepfold" of this earth legally to reclaim the authority that satan, who entered the sheepfold through deception in the garden of Eden, had stolen from Adam and Eve through said deception. Remember in Matthew, when Jesus was resurrected, he said, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” —Matthew 28:18 KJV, so now we can do things in His name.)

Frank: Yeah, hmm hmm, very good.

Dank: When you come to that reason [In Chapter 11 of the "Bible Teach" book], you'll see.

Chris: Matthew 9:38... I was just looking up something.
[I took a little time to look up all of the scripture references from the previous paragraph in my computer software.]

Frank: Luke 15:11-13, yeah you know what situation this is [The story of the Prodigal Son], so it helps you to appreciate that the father wasn't responsible.

Chris: But it also speaks of personal responsibility because the son had to come to himself. He had to realize that he didn't have to live the way he was living. And that he had certain rights, and that he had certain responsibilities.

Frank: But then it sets something else too, to help you appreciate what a loving God Jehovah is. That father portrayed that by welcoming that son back to him. Which helps us to appreciate how Jehovah welcomes us back when we stray, if we're repentant. So you can pick up on quite a few examples of God's Word the Bible and the illustrations that we'll cover. Okay, let's see the "b" part to that - "Why would it be unfair for us to find fault with God's decision to allow mankind to pursue a wayward course?"

Chris: Well, uhm... again, just according to what written here in this [Bible Teach] book, it's saying that it would be unfair because it's not God's fault.

Frank: Okay, but what else does it bring out there?

Chris: (Looking up the scripture reference (Isaiah 33:2) in the previous paragraph)

Frank: Do you see in that scripture there why it's unfair for us to find fault with God's decision to allow mankind to pursue a wayward course? That last sentence helps us to appreciate what?

Chris: Oh, you're talking about hope for a solution?

Frank: Yeah. See, that scripture brings it out there:

“LORD, be merciful to us! We wait for you. Give us strength each morning! Deliver us when distress comes.” —Isaiah 33:2 NET

So it helps us to appreciate, we don't wanna blame Jehovah God because He gives us the only solution to our problems.

Chris: Right, so what's the solution in what you're saying here? I mean how is Isaiah 33:2 helping me to appreciate the solution? What's the solution?

Frank: Ok, here's the thing of what we're talking about here. Listen to the question again: "Why it's unfair for us to find fault with God's decision to allow mankind to pursue a wayward course?" So if Jehovah God is gonna provide the only solution to it, would be fair for us to find fault?

Chris: Well it definitely wouldn't be fair, but I guess what I'm saying is, right here it says "hope for a solution".

Frank: Hmm hmm, gives us the only hope for a solution see? So yeah we wouldn't blame him. It wouldn't be fair.

Chris: Oh, ok. What I'm doing is I'm connecting [Isaiah] 33:2 with "only hope for a solution". I'm trying to see what they have to do with one another. What does Isaiah 33:2 have to do with "the only hope for a solution"?

Frank: Well, the scripture itself there. Brother Smith?

[Note: I didn't know it at the time since I didn't have a copy of the NWT in my software, but the phrase "hope for a solution" is an allusion to the way the NWT translates part of Isaiah 33:2. Most translations read "Be gracious or merciful to us, O Lord, in you we have waited, while the NWT reads, "In you we have hoped."]

Dank: Well it says there, even in that translation there it says;

“O LORD, be gracious unto us; we have waited for thee: be thou their arm every morning” —Isaiah 33:2 KJV

Now "arm" here would carry with it the connotation - when you speak of "arm" is something that is powerful, something that can move, something that can change things. If you want to move something around, when you want to changes as humans, we use our arms to move things, to handle things, to do things with. So Jehovah is our "arm" in that He is going to fix everything so it would be definitely wrong to find fault in how he's doing the thing. He has a plan. As a matter of fact, He's the only one that can fix things, so that's the whole idea. He's the only one that has the "arm" the power to fix everything, so we should have hope in that. And that should give us hope. Look, this is the one that's going to come and save us and make things right, so I definitely wouldn't want to disagree with him and the way he choose to handle things.

Chris: I guess where I'm stuck at is, and I don't want to belabor the point, but it says that even here...

“be thou their arm every morning, our salvation also in the time of trouble.” —Isaiah 33:2 KJV

So you said it could be strength. Okay. But also arm can be both strength and comfort, right?

Dank: Right.

Chris: ...and protection

Dank: All of the above.

Chris: And the arm holds the shield and "our salvation also in the time of trouble". So if I'm in trouble, he is my strength and my salvation. So--

Dank: And we live time of trouble definitely.

Frank: So with the words you just spoke, there's no reason, it wouldn't be fair to find fault.

Chris: But is says give us strength each morning, I'm just looking at different versions. And there's another scripture in Psalms that says his mercies are new every morning...

Dank: What it makes me think of when I see there where it says "every morning", to me that phrase carries with it the idea of... see we see things as happening on a daily basis, everyday. That's the way we think. We think in 24 hour periods. So we can look for this to be everyday, he will lift us up so we can count on it per se. It's the regularity of counting on his mercy, his power, his strength, his comfort.

Chris: Or even in the morning, like tomorrow morning...

Dank: Yeah it can be literal or figurative.

Chris: Well this here looks to be more literal than figurative because if I'm praying today and I want to be delivered, well, I'm going to go to sleep, but when I get up in the morning, I need things to be happening. I need to have a new day tomorrow and that makes it practical because I believe that God's Word is very practical.

Dank: And I'll go along with that, but then even Jehovah would give us scriptures like this that would still make reference to a long term [situation] and that's what we're talking about, his salvation for man, but we know it probably won't be in the morning when we wake up literally...

Chris: But there still is salvation for in the morning, so what I'm saying is that we have to be cognizant of that. Because if I'm trippin' today, there is salvation for me in the morning. In our walk we have to be mindful of that and be able to depend on that, because we can depend on it.

Frank: And we've got so many scriptures, it's like Brother Smith brought out there that helps us to appreciate. One of them is Proverbs 3:5,6. “Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight.” —Proverbs 3:5–6 NWT So when we're trusting that when we wake up in the morning, we're thankful that things will be made right.

Dank: We also trust him with our future. The future of mankind and all the ills of mankind will be cleaned up and straightened out. We trust Him in that as well.

[Note: This is the point where it clicks in my head that the JW's have a LOT of hope in the future, but not much faith and power for the here and now, so I patiently wait for an perfect opportunity to share that part of the good news with them, that it seems that they lack. Sure, I'm looking forward to heaven and the new earth, but I need some stuff happening now!]

Frank: Yes... Okay. Uhm. Chris I believe it's your turn, so how about paragraph number 10.

Chris:

10 Furthermore, God is holy. (Isaiah 6:3) This means that he is pure and clean. There is no trace of badness in him. So we can trust him completely. That is more than we can say for humans, who sometimes become corrupt. Even the most honest human in authority often does not have the power to undo the damage that bad people do. But God is all-powerful. He can and will undo all the effects that wickedness has had on mankind. When God acts, he will do so in a way that will end evil forever!—Psalm 37:9-11.

Frank: Yes. So paragraph 10: "Why can we trust that God will undo all the effects of wickness?"

Chris: Because he is holy period.

Frank: Yes. Let's look at the scripture here in Psalms... You want to read that Chris?

Chris: Yes I'll read it in the Amplified...

“For evildoers shall be cut off, but those who wait and hope and look for the Lord [in the end] shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the evildoers will be no more; though you look with care where they used to be, they will not be found. But the meek [in the end] shall inherit the earth and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.” —Psalms 37:9–11 AMP

Frank: So you see how that is brought out there and why we can trust that God is going to do away with wickedness. Because he will do away with wickedness, so we can hope in Jehovah.

So how do you feel? We can go on, or we can mark our books here and pick on this the next time.

Chris: Oh, it's on y'all. I just don't want to keep y'all like I did last time. [We normally start at about 6pm and end up going to 8:30-9pm!]

Frank: Okay, HOW DOES GOD FEEL ABOUT INJUSTICES WE FACE? Who's turn is it this time?

Dank: (points to Chris)

Chris: Oh it's my turn?

Frank: Okay we'll go to Paragraph 11

Chris:

11 In the meantime, how does God feel about what is going on in the world and in your life? Well, the Bible teaches that God is “a lover of justice.” (Psalm 37:28) So he cares deeply about what is right and what is wrong. He hates all kinds of injustice. The Bible says that God “felt hurt at his heart” when badness filled the world in times past. (Genesis 6:5, 6) God has not changed. (Malachi 3:6) He still hates to see the suffering that is taking place worldwide. And God hates to see people suffer. “He cares for you,” the Bible says.—1 Peter 5:7.

Frank: Okay, we have an "a" and a "b" question for paragraph 11. "How does God feel about injustice"

Chris: Oh he hates it, He's a lover of justice.

Frank: Yes, it's brought out there in Psalm 37:28.

Chris: You know this - they call it the NET bible. This is a good one for bible study because the people who actually translated it, they put all of their translation notes - I mean it's like 60+ thousand translators notes, and I like it because sometimes I'll be reading along and wonder why they translate a certain word or phrase the way that they did, so we're able to read why they did that.

Frank: So what does that, "being a lover of justice" what does that help us to appreciate concerning Jehovah God.

Chris: It just helps to realize that he's righteous and we have no reason to be afraid and to fear that he's not going to make everything right.

Frank: And the scripture there is Genesis 6:5, 6, and let's get the "b" part, "How does God feel about your suffering?

Chris: (reading 1 Peter 5:7 on the screen) yeah, I like reading this in the whole context here. If we read verses 5 through 8 [instead of just verse 7], actually I was just talking to my daughter about this on yesterday, it says:

“Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:” —1 Peter 5:5–8 KJV

In the KJV, it reads, "whom he may devour", but I like the way it reads in the NET bible, “Be sober and alert. Your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is on the prowl looking for someone to devour.” —1 Peter 5:8 NET

And I was telling her that a lot of the stuff she sees her friends going through is all because of Satan, because he's looking for people that he can kill, steal and destroy, John 10:10. But Jesus came so that she can have life and have it more abundantly, so what this is implying to me is that Satan is not really a roaring lion, he's "like" a roaring lion, in other words, it's like if you hear loud roaring outside your door, you may think it's a lion and be afraid, but if you open the door and look, you'll see that it's just a tape recorder hooked up to a speaker, so there's nothing to be afraid of. And that's how satan is, he's really not a roaring lion, but he is like a roaring lion. Seeking someone who he may devour, but there are some people who he can't devour.

Frank: And that roaring lion there, it helps you to appreciate if you just think about that roar. What does that roar do? He can roar in such a way that you'll have that [roar] reverberate and the animals don't know where he is, and nine times out of ten, some of them will run right into them. That's something I've experienced right down here in Jacksonville at the zoo, but he was in something like a pit. But when that lion got to roaring it got the attention of everbody and you could see everyone all over the zoo grounds going in that direction. But when he's out there on an open plain and he's hungry for his prey, he can hold his head down to the ground and roar and nine times out of ten they'll run right into him. Brother Smith?

Dank: Like a lion, Satan also picks up on the spiritually weak. Lions a lot of times don't want to work that hard for their food. That's why that simile is there. I mean, he looks for the weak ones, the lame ones, and like you said, or the young ones in the same context that you just read, because the young ones are not listening to their elders and we're trying to protect them from the lions, and they're lagging right out there and lions do that all the time in the literal sense.

Chris: Yeah, and they know how to getcha. He's not going to try anything new if the same old trick keeps working.

Frank: He's not a creator so he can devise something new and catch us by surprise. He uses the same tactics over and over again. And it works for him.

Dank: And He [God] cares for us, there's no doubt about it.

Chris: But we have to humble ourselves. We have to be sober, we gotta be vigilant.

Frank: And what does it say there about how God felt around Noah's day there.

Chris: Yeah, lets look at that. That's in Genesis 6:5,6

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth;” —Genesis 6:5–7 KJV

Dank: I like that in the New English Translation in verse 6.

“The LORD regretted that he had made humankind on the earth, and he was highly offended.” —Genesis 6:6 NET

That kinda says it...

Frank: Yeah... They had something that came out on Jeopardy that asked which one was the most accurate translation and uhm, nobody got the answer, so Alex Trebech said, "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures" was the most accurate.

[Note: You'll see in a later transcript that we talked about this in detail and I showed him a lot of proof that this never happened.]

Dank: What I liked about that, it [I'm assuming he's talking about a meeting they had where this rumor was propogated] showed a comparative block like he has right their (pointing at the side-by-side blocks of different bible translations on the screen) of different translations, and [Jason] BeDuhn, [Author of Truth in Translation,] was in that, he's a bible scholar at a major theological school, and he even agreed on that... It's similar to that New English Translation -- our New World Translation. It's similar in a lot of ways. I see a lot of similarities there.

Frank: That's a beautiful setup you have there...

Dank: Yeah it's nice man, you can cross reference at the flick of a finger, that's nice there, I've been looking at it... He got Scofield, he got some of everything....

Chris: Yeah, I can go in here and put my own little personal notes in here, that's what this "Personal Translation" is, because sometimes if I find something that really stands out to me, I like to re-word in such a way that young people can understand it, because I have a stepson that lives in Tennessee and I try to explain certain scriptures to him where he can understand it and it'll be on his level.

Dank: How do you get such a program? I mean is that the limit of all the translations you can get on there?

Chris: Oh noooo... noooo... Well the way this works, the name of the software is Accordance, but it's a modular type program. When first bought it, it only had KJV and a few other modules, books, notes, etc. But over time, I've bought other versions and translations and a couple of Hebrew and Greek texts as well just so I can...

Dank: ...So you can just add to it?

Chris: Yeah, you can just add to it, but they have a lot of different books, translations, etc. But it's only for the Macintosh though.

Dank: I wish you could add New World Translation to that so you could compare that along with it, just to see what would happen. If you run across something where you can do that and then compare it and see what you think. I see you're a reasoning person and you like to... I would like to see that...

Chris: Yeah, you know I was actually talking to my mother-in-law's husband and I was trying to explain to him how Christians run across someone saying something that they don't agree with, they shut down and say, "Well, I don't want to talk to them". But God called us to peace. He didn't call us to strife and division, but a lot of times... You know there was a time when John got offended at Jesus when John was in jail...

Frank: ...Oh yeah, and wanted to know whether that was him?

Chris: Yeah. He knew that Jesus was the one, but John got offended. So what happens a lot of times is that Christians get offended at one another when others don't act or react the way we think they ought to act or react. And that causes us not to want to sit down and reason with one another and study the scriptures and it's a sad state of affairs when people can't sit down and fellowship around the Word of God.

[We're on the www.accordancebible.com website to see if we can find the New World Translation, but of course they don't]

So... this is the website here and I wonder if they have the New World Translation. But they do have quite a few translations and books. This the version that I have now with 11 versions and 50 books. But it really is a good program to use. But for Windows they have a pretty nice program called Logos, but Accordance is really, really powerful, especially for a scholar. And I'm definitely not a Scholar by no stretch of the imagination. Here are all the commentaries and dictionaries. They have a Jewish Collection and a Scholars Collection. It's amazing to me just how many English versions of the bible there are.

Just as I've grown and learned, I fellowship with some guys online and they just don't trust certain versions at all, so they never read them at all, but I like to eat the fish and spit out the bones, but I don't throw away everything, but you just have to know how to discern scripture.

But I don't see the New World Translation on here.

[I'm frantically searching the website for the New World Translation so I can buy and see what they're actually reading]

Frank: Can you just type it in instead of abbreviating it?

Chris: Nope can't find it that way?

Frank: Try typing in "The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures" and see if that comes up?

He's fast with that thing... (everyone laughs)

Dank: What kind of work do you do? Do you work with computers?

Chris: Technically, I'm an audiovisual guy. Well, I'm Director of AV, so when people come to the convention center and they need AV services...

Dank: When you say AV services, what....

Chris: ...Like they need to do a presentation, so they need a screen, projector and a laptop, and they need somebody to help them put their powerpoint presentation togehter, so I do stuff like that.

Frank: Oh, okay.

Dank: Wow. Do you do that on the side?

Chris: Yeah, I do sound, actually I use to do a lot of work with a lot of different churches to help them fix their sound systems and stuff like that. But I really like to teach lay people how to do sound.

Dank: I would like to learn. Because I mess around... I got a semi-studio and band and we play in our living room.

Chris: Do y'all record too?

Dank: I don't know what I'm doing? No I just got an old regular PA that needs work...

Frank: Yeah they do a good job.

Dank: Me and my daughters and my wife, we sit around....

Frank: What kind guitar is that you got?

Dank: I play bass guitar.

Chris: You look a bass guitar player!

Frank: Did you find that [NWT for Accordance]?

Chris: No...

What I've found, actually this particular book, this is called "The Word" and it seems to be out of print and it's hard to find many translations that I'd like to compare in Accordance, so what I have to do is find a text online, then I can import it into Accordance. But I don't know what I'd do with out computers though...

Frank: How are you situated with time Dank?

Dank: How are you situated? I'm fine...

Frank: Well where did we stop off?

Chris: The last one I read was paragraph 11.

Frank: So why don't we go on through to the next sub-heading and we'll mark out books?

Chris: Ok.

Frank: Ok, Dank, how about 12 and 13.

Dank:

12 How can we be sure that God hates to see suffering? Here is further proof. The Bible teaches that man was made in the image of God. (Genesis 1:26) We thus have good qualities because God has good qualities. For example, does it bother you to see innocent people suffer? If you care about such injustices, be assured that God feels even more strongly about them.

13 One of the best things about humans is our ability to love. That also reflects God. The Bible teaches that “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) We love because God loves. Would love move you to end the suffering and the injustice you see in the world? If you had the power to do that, would you do it? Of course you would! You can be just as sure that God will end suffering and injustice. The promises mentioned in the preface of this book are not mere dreams or idle hopes. God’s promises are sure to come true! In order to put faith in such promises, though, you need to know more about the God who has made them.

Frank: So paragraph 12 and 13, we have an "a" and a "b" question. "Why do we have good qualities such as love and how does love effect our view of the world?"

Chris: Because we're made in the image of God and God is love. And the scripture says that His love is shed abroad in our hearts.

Frank: Why can you be sure that God really will do something about world problems?

Chris: Because he is love and he has the power.

Frank: And put yourself in his place - being a God of love and seeing all of these things going on around us. If we had the power what would we do, you know? Wouldn't we do something about it? So we can really be sure that Jehovah is going to do something about it. Okay Brother Smith?

Dank: Because the thing of it is, he went right to the point. He said, God is Love and God has the power and then to make a personal application of that when you asked the question if we had had the power, would we do it and since we're made in God's image, we feel the same way he feels about injustices. Because if we see something going on bad out there, if we somebody choking a little old lady or kidnapping a little kid and you and I can do something, we're going to stop it, it's just in our nature because we're created in God's image and we can't stand it. Now with our little "I can't stand it", how much so would the most powerful, can't stand it well. We got that from him. We got that feeling of can't stand that injustice from him.

Frank: Okay. I tell you what, Chris, we'll mark our books here and next time we come we'll take up from here.

Chris: Alright.

Frank: And normally before and after the study we'll say a prayer to Jehovah and we'll do it this time and we look forward to the next time and I'll call you or you'll call me.

Chris: Yeah, I have your number and I usually try to get home early since we're going into our slow season, for the most part.

Frank: Well we'll petition Jehovah. All wise everlasting God Jehovah, in Jesus name, we humbly approach your lofty throne of undeserved kindness at this time. Thanking you Jehovah for the many wonderful blessings that you bestow upon us. We thank you for our life health and strength and all of these beautiful provisions that you make possible to keep us going day in and day out. Jehovah we thank you for making it possible for us to be in the home of Chris to have a study of your Word the Bible by means of the Bible Teach book. As always Jehovah as we cover this material, we want to be able to bring it out where we can clearly understand it and see how we can apply it into our lives and make us better servants of you, and in doing so to bring honor and praise to your rich and holy name. Jehovah, we do love you and we want to do your will, so please be with us in such a way that we can do this more fully. We ask you to please be with Chris and his household and strengthen him and build him up please in the way that you would have him to go. He seems to be knowlegeable and continually learning and have the desire to learn more about you so please Jehovah bless his effort and again strengthen him and build him up in the way that you would have him to go. Jehovah we realize a lot of times when we try to learn more about you or get our lives more so in harmony with your arrangement of things, these are opposing forces and are continually trying to throw hurdles against us to try to block our path of learning more about you and applying it in our lives, so we ask you to please be with Chris and strengthen him and build him up to where if there are any hurdles that come up he'll be able to overcome them. Jehovah we do fall short of coming up to your righteous standards from time to time. We ask you to please forgive us and at the same time strengthen us. And now Jehovah as we prepare to do other things, we turn all of our lives into your care. These and other blessings we ask in your son Jesus name, Amen.

Chris: Amen. Well brothers, I appreciate it.

[We all stand and walk towards the front door]

Dank: I'm glad he brought me over, because I had been asking about you too. I said, 'Did you ever get that guy on Carteret that we met that day? He seemed real right, man.'

Frank: Yeah, I had been by a few times, but I would always come by at the wrong time.

Chris: Well, I appreciate it and I look forward to next time. Take care and be safe out there.

Meeting 2, December 07, 2009: The Overview

2010-03-10T14:10:00.005-05:00

The way I will try to present this material is to provide an overview post and later provide the actual quick transcript of the meeting, as I made sure I recorded all of the subsequent sessions with my iPhone.

After our last meeting, although I can genuinely appreciate the fact that JW's go door to door on a regular basis spreading (what I thought was the gospel), I was troubled that it wasn't the whole complete gospel and the little gospel that they preach was muddied up by a distorted gospel of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I decided to actually do some research on the internets about the Jehovah Witnesses and what they believed as well as to see if anyone had any advice on how to respond to the book, "What Does the Bible Really Teach". A quick Google search turned up a publication written by Wilbur Lingle, entitled, "How to Respond to 'What Does the Bible Really Teach'" I quickly downloaded the pdf file and read through some of the questions and answers so that I could better prepare myself not only to respond to the questions but be ready to explain and share my view of the good news of "God's way of doing things" to Frank* and his ministry partner as well. The publication, while helpful didn't include a lot of the questions that I had and it was written from a certain theological point of view. However, I could appreciate the heart in which it was written.

By reading Lingle's book, I quickly learned how the JW's "bible study" is supposed to work. Each chapter in the book begins with a few questions that are to be answered during the study of the chapter. Each paragraph in each chapter is numbered so that in the foot note of each page there will be a corresponding question that reads like an answer to the game show "Jeopardy". For instance, you just read the previous sentence, so based on what you just read, the question would be, "How is the JW's "bible study" supposed to work?" The correct answer would be to repeat back what you just read instead of trying to come up with your own answers, so most of the time my reply would be something like, "Well, according to your little book here it says this, but according to such and such chapter and verse in the actual bible, I believe the correct answer is this." Because no matter what I believe about different topics, I ultimately have to compare that with the overall love and character of God himself.

The next visit Frank* brought what seemed to be a more knowledgeable partner in Dank*. I had come in contact with Dank* on an earlier visit, but had quickly brushed him and his ministry partner to the side, as I had just gotten home and didn't want to be bothered. During this visit, we were able to get through at least a few pages of the book. Most of the things in the first few pages are pretty agreeable by Bible believing Christians. They were impressed by my use of Accordance Bible software as I was able to compare different bible versions (I had hooked my computer up to a 50" plasma monitor so that we could search the scriptures together). Additionally, Dank* seemed very impressed with the New English Translation of the Bible as some of the wording in the NET bible seems to correct what is translated in the King James Version of the Bible and some passages convey the same meanings as translated in the New World Translation. Of course they asked if the New World Translation was available in my bible software, so I took them online to search the Accordance site for the NWT, but to no avail. I thought it would be beneficial to show them the differences between the NWT and other versions of the bible, so during the next week, I took the time to download the HTML text of their bible from the Watchtower website so that we could look through the discrepancies together.

I can't remember whether or not I explained this in a previous post or not, but let me take time here to further explain why I'm glad that I took the time to have this bible study with the JW's. I think that it is wrong for all of these people who call themselves Christians (including myself) to live in a little bubble with our Jesus T-Shirts, hats and pens and never engage other people. And then when we do engage other people, we try to convert them to Christianity. I believe that we should follow Jesus' example and simply live our lives as Christ-like people of God and eat, drink, and be sociable with people so that they can see the light that we have instead of us trying to get them to repeat the "sinners prayer". But that's just my opinion and the way I conduct this bible study. I want to develop a relationship with Frank* so that he can better hear what I have to say. I want to love him in the 1 Cor. 13 way, not being touchy, but being kind and not insisting on my own way.

By developing this relationship, Frank* tells me how when he first got involved with the JW's he was looking for answers as it related to death and the Watchtower gave him "some satisfying answers" and gave him "a lotta hope". He adamantly remarked about "Jehovah God" and the "beautiful hope". Most of the arguments that's presented in the "Bible Teach" book are predicated on seemingly common sense questions, answers, and examples. The book is definitely geared towards men and women who have never read or understood the bible.

We would take turns reading the paragraphs and then Frank* would look at the bottom of the page to find the questions that relates to the paragraphs previously read. Hopefully, I can get the rough transcript posted by the end of the day today as I'm sure that the conversation we had was indeed fruitful and be helpful for everyone reading this blog.

*The names of the Jehovah's Witnesses have been changed.

Initial Knock at the door, November 3...

2010-02-19T22:04:00.003-05:00

Initial Knock at the door, November 30, 2009:

I was working from home and had been at home all day while my wife, Tracey, had just gotten home from work. As per our routine, we settled into the bedroom and closed the door while we watched TV and contemplated the daily question, "What's for dinner?". Our daughter, Naomi, was still living with us and had not left to go to school in Delaware just yet, so I was kinda hoping that she would get up and cook something (I liked it when she cooked pork chops). When we heard the doorbell ring, we both looked at each other because we knew that could only be one of two things, since we NEVER invite people over to our house -- either the Mormons who we had been seeing riding around the neighborhood on their mountain bikes or the Jehovah Witnesses, whom I had turned away a few weeks earlier.

I got out the bed and threw on some pants and went to the door and was greeted by a tall dark elderly gentleman with salt and pepper hair, glasses, dressed in a black suit, black tie and white shirt carrying a brief case, and his female companion who was conservatively dressed on wool earth tones with the prerequisite head covering. I normally would simply listen to what they had to say then insist that I was already saved and knew the bible, so they didn't need to waste their time witnessing to me, since I'm sure I'm going to heaven. However, this time I felt sorry for them standing out in the cold, (it was much colder this year in Southeast Georgia than it was at the same time the year before), so I asked them to come in and have a seat. The door to my bedroom, where I'm sure my wife was curiously listening to see what in the world I was doing, and my daughters door, where I'm sure she was oblivious to the fact that the doorbell had even rung since she kept her ear-buds plugged in her ears, were both closed as the witnesses both sat on the sofa facing the front door. I did a quick scan around the room to see if there was anything I needed to put away or move since I had just had all of my computers and cables all over the floor.

This was the first time I had invited any random stranger, yet alone Jehovah Witnesses into our home. I knew they wanted to conduct a "bible study", so while I wasn't nervous, I was amazed that I was actually allowing this to happen since I had grown up seeing my family shun the JW's like radiation poison. As they both sat down and got settled into the couch which is one of those couches that when you sit on it, you sink down into the cushions, he gave me a copy of a book that another Jehovah Witness had left with me just a month or so earlier. If I recall, there were no formal introductions or even a short prayer during this first visit. As I do with any book thats placed in my hands, I started looking for and examining the pictures like a kid who hates to read, while they pulled out the rest of their Watchtower materials. Frank, an gentle, elderly black gentleman with a booming deep voice that could go from a soft deep whisper, to a loud and boisterous laugh and an un-named soft-spoken black female who accompanied him seemed excited that they got a "bite" so to speak, especially a "bite" who seemed to know a little about the Bible. Of course, we didn't get past the first two pages of their "bible study" book, "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" during this first 3 HOUR meeting.

On the first two pages of this book, I kept reading about what God WILL do and how we WILL live in the future, and I went off on a tangent talking about how we as bible believing Christians could have heaven on earth now. Of course, at the time, I had no idea that JW's didn't believe in the Holy Spirit dwelling in us or that we as bible believing we as Christians have authority on this earth.

Frank seemed rather surprised that I agreed with some of their beliefs that a lot of other Christians can't get to. For instance, we both agreed that God is not in control of things on this earth as most people especially deeply religious Christians believe that he is. (2Cor 4:4; Gen 25:34; John 14:30; Eph 2:2)

I kept them over here for about 3 hours just talking about different things but I didn't record this session, neither did I have my computer and projector setup to search and find scriptures. However, I did have my Mantis Bible Study on my iPhone and that was pretty cool as scriptures popped in my mind, but I didn't remember where they were. At one point I even deliberately spoke in tongues to prove a point about how limited my English vocabulary is when I know I need to pray about something or someone but don't know how (Romans 8:26), but I was excited, refreshed and energized about studying the bible with them. Thus we set a time for them to return the following Monday and we would designate every Monday evening as our bible study time, however, as you'll see in my later posts, it's not so much as a bible study as it is a WBTS publication study which I later turn into a WBTS history study.

Thoughts on the WBTS and Jehovah's Wi...

2010-02-19T20:47:00.001-05:00

Thoughts on the WTBS and Jehovah's Witnesses

by Chris E. Echols

Before I started studying with the Jehovah Witnesses in December 2009, I had never had a desire to even converse with them, because our society, expecially in the modern Christian church, tends to cause us to shun the Jehovah Witnesses, just like evangelists of the Mormon faith. However, recently, I worked up the courage to invite them in and allow them to share their faith as I was confident in my faith. I love to study the bible, so I said, "Why Not?"

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (WBTS) tend to view the Bible much differently than I do, but I always set out to prove all things and hold on to the good stuff 1Thessalonians 5:21. I had also felt an nudging from the Holy Spirit to be fruitful and share what I know. Upon our first meeting, I agreed with my adversary quickly (Matt 5:25) and saw many points that we could agree upon. However, before I knew anything about JW's, I had brought up the fact that I admire their willingness to go door to door sharing their faith, and I made an inference to the work of the Holy Spirit in helping them minister. That's when I found out that they didn't believe that he Spirit could live in us continuously. I shared how I would not dare to go door to door without confidence that I could yield my words, thoughts and deeds to the Holy Spirit, since I'm not that smart on my own.

In our very first session, they gave me their literature to use as a "guide" to study the Bible. In the first couple of pages of there publication, "What does the Bible Really Teach", they made allusions to "paradise earth" and they talked about a hopeful escape of this current cruel world. Just out pure innocence, I told them although I see in the Bible that we can indeed look forward to that paradise here on earth, I didn't have to wait until Jesus came back to have health and provision now, because he accomplished that part of the plan when he came the first time. I also admitted that I was a little offended that they were going to my neighbors teaching them about "paradise earth", but not telling them the "Good News" that Jesus died so that they could have life NOW. And that's when I decided to investigate the WBTS and see what else they were teaching, since I was obviously ignorant.

It appears that the WBTS doesn't take the bible literally, except in places where it bolsters the clout of the "organization" in the eyes of its believers or "witnesses". They tend to always come up with some "spiritual" way to relate the story or parable to their over-riding principles for their existance (i.e. That Jesus appointed them as the "faithful and discreet slave", which has no scriptural support not even a little bit).

Over the next few weeks, I plan to post rough transcripts and commentary of my bible study sessions with a Jehovah Witness. Hopefully it will help others not only learn how JW's believe and operate, but will also clear up some misunderstandings about both what the Bible actually says, and what many people may believe. So I hope that you'll subscribe, comment, and email and engage in the conversation. All I ask is that if you're going to tell us what you believe, tell us where you get your belief from, (i.e., scripture and verse, mom, grandpa, etc.)

Enjoy...

My thoughts on the "Trinity Doctrine"

2010-02-19T20:22:00.001-05:00

My thoughts on the "Trinity Doctrine"

While I see in scripture that there are indeed 3 distinct manifistations of God (YHWH) in the persons of God the spirit, his Son Jesus, and Holy Spirit, the Comforter, I don't agree that Jesus was God OR Divine during his time here on earth. The verse in John 1:14 that Christians quote clearly reads that The Word (Jesus) became flesh. Jesus was indeed divine before he came to earth, but while on earth he lived and function as a man and came into his knowing of who he was and what his purpose was the same way humans have to today - through the Word of God.

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:” —Philippians 2:5–7 KJV

I do acknowledge and understand that the reading 1John 5:7 in the KJV was a translation of greek manuscripts that were altered to support the "Trinity Doctrine", but that does not diminish the fact that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do agree in purpose, aim, and goals while having differing "job responsibilities" or functions in the Body of Christ. In context, the writer in 1John was referring to Spirit, the water (Jesus' Baptism) and the blood (Jesus' brutal death on the cross) being in agreement in the testimony that, "Yes, Jesus Christ is indeed the Son of God whom God sent to die for the sins of the world.

Text-Critical Note from the New English Translation: Before to\ pneuvma kai« to\ u¢dwr kai« to\ ai–ma (to pneuma kai to hudoœr kai to haima), the Textus Receptus (TR) reads e˙n twˆ◊ oujranwˆ◊, oJ path/r, oJ lo/goß, kai« to\ a‚gion pneuvma, kai« ou∞toi oi˚ trei√ß eºn ei˙si. 5:8 kai« trei√ß ei˙sin oi˚ marturouvnteß e˙n thvØ ghvØ (“in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that testify on earth”). This reading, the infamous Comma Johanneum, has been known in the English-speaking world through the King James translation. However, the evidence — both external and internal — is decidedly against its authenticity. For a detailed discussion, see TCGNT 647–49. Our discussion will briefly address the external evidence. This longer reading is found only in nine late MSS, four of which have the words in a marginal note. Most of these MSS (221 2318 [18th century] {2473 [dated 1634]} and [with minor variations] 61 88 429 629 636 918) originate from the 16th century; the earliest ms, codex 221 (10th century) includes the reading in a marginal note, added sometime after the original composition. The oldest ms with the Comma in its text is from the 14th century (629), but the wording here departs from all the other MSS in several places. The next oldest MSS on behalf of the Comma, 88 (12th century) 429 (14th) 636 (15th), also have the reading only as a marginal note (v.l.). The remaining MSS are from the 16th to 18th centuries. Thus, there is no sure evidence of this reading in any Greek ms until the 14th century (629), and that ms deviates from all others in its wording; the wording that matches what is found in the TR was apparently composed after Erasmus’ Greek NT was published in 1516. Indeed, the Comma appears in no Greek witness of any kind (either ms, patristic, or Greek translation of some other version) until A.D. 1215 (in a Greek translation of the Acts of the Lateran Council, a work originally written in Latin). This is all the more significant since many a Greek Father would have loved such a reading, for it so succinctly affirms the doctrine of the Trinity. The reading seems to have arisen in a 4th century Latin homily in which the text was allegorized to refer to members of the Trinity. From there, it made its way into copies of the Latin Vulgate, the text used by the Roman Catholic Church. The Trinitarian formula (known as the Comma Johanneum) made its way into the third edition of Erasmus’ Greek NT (1522) because of pressure from the Catholic Church. After his first edition appeared, there arose such a furor over the absence of the Comma that Erasmus needed to defend himself. He argued that he did not put in the Comma because he found no Greek MSS that included it. Once one was produced (codex 61, written in ca. 1520), Erasmus apparently felt obliged to include the reading. He became aware of this ms sometime between May of 1520 and September of 1521. In his annotations to his third edition he does not protest the rendering now in his text, as though it were made to order; but he does defend himself from the charge of indolence, noting that he had taken care to find whatever MSS he could for the production of his text. In the final analysis, Erasmus probably altered the text because of politico-theologico-economic concerns: He did not want his reputation ruined, nor his Novum Instrumentum to go unsold. Modern advocates of the TR and KJV generally argue for the inclusion of the Comma Johanneum on the basis of heretical motivation by scribes who did not include it. But these same scribes elsewhere include thoroughly orthodox readings — even in places where the TR/Byzantine MSS lack them. Further, these advocates argue theologically from the position of divine preservation: Since this verse is in the TR, it must be original. (Of course, this approach is circular, presupposing as it does that the TR = the original text.) In reality, the issue is history, not heresy: How can one argue that the Comma Johanneum goes back to the original text yet does not appear until the 14th century in any Greek MSS (and that form is significantly different from what is printed in the TR; the wording of the TR is not found in any Greek MSS until the 16th century)? Such a stance does not do justice to the gospel: Faith must be rooted in history. Significantly, the German translation of Luther was based on Erasmus’ second edition (1519) and lacked the Comma. But the KJV translators, basing their work principally on Theodore Beza’s 10th edition of the Greek NT (1598), a work which itself was fundamentally based on Erasmus’ third and later editions (and Stephanus’ editions), popularized the Comma for the English-speaking world. Thus, the Comma Johanneum has been a battleground for English-speaking Christians more than for others.

Additionally, if Jesus was indeed divine, special, or God while he was here on the earth, it would give us Christians today no right to believe that we could even attempt to do the things that Jesus did (and later his followers did in the book of Acts). Thus, I believe that the summarizing conclusion of the Trinity Doctrine is what turns it into a Doctrine of the Devil, because it takes away the power of Jesus' death on the cross and his subsequent resurrection. It is not complete enough to say that Jesus is God, you have to realize that Jesus, the Word was made flesh and that is how he did what he did - the Word taking residence in the human spirit and operating in the earth with a human body and soul.

David and Jonothan's Homosexual Love

2009-11-08T09:41:00.001-05:00

2 Samuel 1:25-26

I've heard people try to use David's affection for Jonathan to suggest
that homosexual love is okay. The only thing that is okay according
to this relationship, is strong affection to a person of the same
sex. This cannot be confused with homsexual sex. Though David
lamented that Jonathan's love was more wonderful than that of women
that he loved, you have to know that David was straighter than the
straightest dude. He virtually invented "Bro's before Ho's". It is
very possible for men to have a deep and special connection with a man
without it being homosexual (meaning that they actually have sexual
intimacy and penetration). In fact I dare say that the only thing
that separates best friend relationships from homosexual relationships
is the sex. Sex with same sex partners is a sin, but deep love and
affection for that same person is not. Sex is not love and love is
not sex.

Trials come to KILL YOU, not to make you stronger

2009-10-31T19:56:00.004-04:00

A lot of people say things like, "What doesn't kill you will make you stronger", so we automatically jump to the conclusion that trials, troubles, tribulations must come to make you stronger, which in turn leads us to the erroneous conclusion that God must be the one sending the trials, troubles and/or tribulations. After all, surely God is the one who would want us to be stronger, right?

Now don't get me wrong. If you happen to have a healthy reaction to a trial or trouble in your life, good for you. But most people are hurt, hardened, and discouraged when bad things happen to them. Some people's "stronger" is really just a hardened heart and disposition on life, rather than a healthy response to a test or trial.

For instance when someone hurts you and betrays your trust, you can either react in a way that teaches you to have a greater sense of forgiviness and unconditional love, which is healthy, or you could react by never trusting again.

So here are the questions we should ask ourselves. Who is causing our pain, troubles, or trials? God, satan, our friends or family, or ourself? Why is that person causing the pain? To make you stronger? To kill you? To piss you off? Or to make you stronger. Now you can choose to believe whatever makes you feel happy, but the truth will make you free.

Let's take on a terrible disease like cancer. Most people think that God is in control of any and everything that happens in life. So when we or someone we love get's cancer, we're trying to figure out how and why would God give us cancer. If we have enough sense to know that he didn't give us cancer, we're trying to figure out why is he allowing cancer to wreak havoc in our bodies.

Here's where we need ot be able to separate fact from religious fiction in order to get to the how and the why. If you've ever been to a funeral or been to a church service, you've probably heard things like, "God won't put more on you than you can bear" and "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away". These false and misleading statements gleaned from the bible tend to reinforce the confusion that we face about the "how" and the "why" in our lives.

Let's look in the bible to find out where cancer is coming from and what is the role of God, satan and us in dealing with cancer (or any other test trial or tribulation). First, let's ask ourselves is cancer a good thing or a bad thing? Most people would say cancer is bad, so if it's bad, could we also say that it is evil? Yes. Cancer is evil and bad. So if someone is in control of the evil things, who would it be? God, satan, or you? Well, surely we can eliminate God (and Jesus) right? In John 10:10, Jesus says that satan came to kill, steal, and destroy, while he on the other hand came so that you can have and enjoy life. So according to Jesus, satan is the one trying to kill you or your loved ones with cancer. Why? Satan is jealous and envious of the power and love that God has given mankind (see Psalm 8). He decieved a third of the angels, is sentenced to hell and wants to take as many of God's creation with him (Isaiah 14:12-15).

So now we can see that satan is evil and he's behind the bad stuff. So why doesn't God stop him? Well, God has stopped him in Heaven, but you have to remember that God gave man control and dominion over the earth (Genesis 1:26-28). So in short, I'm saying that God, who can't lie (Numbers 23:19) put you and I in control of the earth, so God allows what what we allow (Matthew 16:19; 18:18) Ironically though, to fight the cancer we have to submit to God (his way of doing things) resist the devil (the guy with the cancer) and he (satan) will flee from you (James 4:7). Of course it takes faith to do this, but you have to have the truth of God's word to have the faith and act on the kind of faith that it takes to get rid of cancer.

There is sooooo much to know about how to walk in faith, so I hope to have a different post laying out the whole faith thing later, but hopefully now, you can start rejecting the idea that God is in control of everything that happens in your life and that those things are happening to make you stronger.

Let me hear your thoughts in the comments.

Does God Hate Divorce?

2009-04-25T07:39:00.003-04:00

It has been long held by religious people that God hates divorce based on an inaccurate interpretation of Malachi 2:16, as well as verses in Matthew and Mark. So in this article, we'd like to take a real hard look at this question. When I first heard this, I was married and I was in a pretty bad marriage, but in my mind, divorce wasn’t an option. So I wanted to find this notorious piece of scripture where a loving God says that he hates divorce. At the time, my favorite version of the bible, the New Century Version wasn’t available, so I did a web search and found the suspect verse:

“For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.”

(Malachi 2:16 KJVS)

Most other versions including some of my favorite translations, render the Hebrew word translated in the KJV as “putting away”, as “divorce”. Now I know already that most religious people would stop reading here and decide that this article is seeking a way to give people a free license to divorce their spouses at will, when this is not the point of this article at all. However, I will stand by the three basic points of this article:

1. According to Malachi 2:16, God DOES NOT HATE divorce. It should be noted that divorce is defined as “the legal dissolution of a marriage.”

2. God DOES hate putting away, and specifically putting away, or separating/leaving your spouse to marry someone else; as well as marrying someone who is “put away”.

3. AND in the SAME VERSE, GOD hates abusive spouses. That’s what the whole “covereth violence with the garment” thing means (i.e. punching your wife in the face and trying to hide it.) It really is a shame to really hate someone enough to physically beat them.

Now do these points give spouses who hate their significant other right now free course to rush down to the courthouse to file divorce papers? NO. There are still really good, firm, biblical reasons for divorce. But since there are reasons for divorce that God is pretty clear on, it would seem to continue to contradict the notion that God hates divorce. How can an almighty, all-knowing, God hate a thing and then give provisions for it and even in some cases, command divorce.

This post is not for those of us who believe with all of our heart that God Hates Divorce and the only way a person can get remarried after divorce is after their ex-spouse dies. This post is for those of us who HAVE already been divorced or are going through an inevitable divorce as we speak. This is in light the reality of divorce in our world, so let's study it out.

My point. The original Hebrew bible does NOT say that God hates divorce. The verse actually reads that God hates putting away, and that’s only if you render that "God is hating" anything in the first place... Hebrew is a crazy language, but that's for another thread.
Let’s look at a few different ways our English versions of the Hebrew text render this verse in two groups:

Group 1
“For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.” —Malachi 2:16 KJV

““For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the LORD, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and do not be faithless.”” —Malachi 2:16 ESV

““If he hates and divorces his wife,” says the LORD God of Israel, “he covers his garment with injustice,” says the LORD of Hosts. Therefore, watch yourselves carefully, and do not act treacherously.” —Malachi 2:16 HCSB

Let’s also take note here that while the KJV renders the Hebrew word “shalach” as put away, the other translations I’ve used renders “shalach” as divorce.

Now let’s compare those renderings with the ones that we’ve heard in church:
Group 2
““For I hate divorce,” says the LORD, the God of Israel, “and him who covers his garment with wrong,” says the LORD of hosts. “So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously.”” —Malachi 2:16 NASB

““I hate divorce,” says the GOD of Israel. GOD of-the-Angel-Armies says, “I hate the violent dismembering of the ‘one flesh’ of marriage.” So watch yourselves. Don’t let your guard down. Don’t cheat.” —Malachi 2:16 MESSAGE

““I hate divorce,” says the LORD God of Israel, “and I hate a man’s covering himself with violence as well as with his garment,” says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.” —Malachi 2:16 NIV

““For the LORD God of Israel says That He hates divorce, For it covers one’s garment with violence,” Says the LORD of hosts. “Therefore take heed to your spirit, That you do not deal treacherously.”” —Malachi 2:16 NKJV

Now which renderings do you disagree with? Group 1 or Group 2
Before we go to what Jesus said, let’s look at the law Moses gave… “When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement "kriythuwth" , and give it in her hand, and send her out "shalach" of his house.” —Deuteronomy 24:1 KJV

““When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house,” —Deuteronomy 24:1 ESV

“If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house,” —Deuteronomy 24:1 NIV

Now let’s go to the NT and see what Jesus said in Matthew. “It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.” —Matthew 5:31–32 KJV
“They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.” —Matthew 19:7–9 KJV

The author of Mark records it slightly differently,
“And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” —Mark 10:2–9 KJV

Here’s my point restated. The original texts make a distinction between “putting away” and “divorce” while most translators of the bible did not probably because of the way they were raised. Remember that Jesus (or the writers of Matthew and Mark, since we don't know whether Jesus actually spoke Greek) is using the term "apuluo" (put away) and not the term "apostasion" (divorce). Remember that the Pharisees question was "Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement "apostasion", AND to put her away "apuluo"?

Now what about remarriage then?
"And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away "apuluo" his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away "apuluo" doth commit adultery. "

Notice, Jesus didn’t say who ever marries one that is divorced, but one who is “put away”. In other words, if you "put away" or "separate" from your wife for any reason outside of fornication AND you marry another, you are committing adultery. Everyone could agree that if a man who has been separated from his wife for 5 years is trying to marry another woman when he’s not legally divorced from his wife, that this is called adultery, no matter how you slice it. Now to get the gravity of this like we'll see the disciples got when they responded in verse 10, we have to consider that they were under the law... “The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”” —Matthew 19:10 ESV

Back in those days, if you were married, and you found out your wife had sex with another man (or woman for that matter), your wife would (or should) get stoned to death and there wouldn't be a need for divorce, because she would be dead! However, some men wouldn't have her stoned, but would just put her away, or if the tables were turned, maybe the guy bypassed the stoning. But lets say that she committed adultery by fornicating with another man and was indeed stoned to death. In that case, you could go ahead and marry another woman. However, if you "put away" or separate from your wife without giving her a legal divorce, but you go have sex with someone else, you are now committing adultery. The penalty for adultery again is stoning. So now as a man who doesn't want to have sex with his legally married wife, but goes after a prostitute or another woman will be stoned and killed. So either way you go, somebody's got to die. If another man marries or has sex with your wife before you actually get legally divorced, you guessed it, the stoning and boom you're dead.

Now if you don’t agree with all of this, it is fine. I was married before and it was terrible. I didn't want to sign her divorce papers that she filed even though I was being hurt, because I thought that God hated divorce, but then I read my bible and found out that I was going on somebody else's revelation. I’m now married again and God has blessed me in this marriage beyond my wildest dreams and I love my wife (whom I actually prayed about this time) with all my heart. God has caused me to forget all the pain that I went through in my first marriage.

Be blessed y’all and know that God loves you.

How to Avoid Divorce

I thought it proper to spend a little time to talk about how to avoid divorce in the first place before giving the bible reasons for divorce.

First let me repeat the outline that Jesus gave in Matthew and Mark:

1. "He which made them at the beginning..." First and foremost God has to make them "at the beginning" of the relationship, implying that God has to be an integral part of each partner's life.

2. "...made them male and female..." Don't get it twisted, God DID intend for marriage to be between male and female, not male and male, and not female and female.

3. "For this cause shall a man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." This statement alone is one of the most missed rules of marriage. People make the mistake of not making their spouse a priority once they get married. Then if they do an “o.k.” job in making their spouse a priority, the two people still go through life as separate individuals with their own separate bank accounts, separate cars and other assets, etc. Many times this is a result of distrust or bad upbringing. Marriage is designed to work with both partners being one with each other socially, financially, mentally and physically (hooray for sex!). Many people end up in divorce because they are breaking these three foundational laws of the institution of marriage. Jesus continues to reiterate, "wherefore, they are no more twain, or two separate individuals, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together (or “made”, i.e. this original intent or the institution of marriage), let no man put asunder (or depart from).”

Other scriptural guidelines for marriage that should be self-explanatory:

Gal 5:15, Ephesians 5:25-33, 1 Peter 3:1-2 and 4, Titus 2:3-5.

1. Love yourself.

2. Love your spouse.

3. Stop being selfish.

4. Be kind to your spouse.

5. Be respectful to your spouse.

6. Pray with your natural understanding. Don't just tell God about the problem though. He already knows what the problems are. You need to find out what His Words say about marriage, and pray about that and confess those words. Then you need to be quiet and just listen closely to see if He says anything to you. A lot of times we'll pray or talk, talk, talk, talk, then go on about our day or our business, not taking the time to see what God is trying to say. There is no magic amount of time to pray, but you at least need to get quiet and still long enough to hear something from God. You may not hear it right away, but you can be confident that he hears you 1 John 5:14.

7. Pray in the spirit. If you don't believe in talking or praying in tongues, it's just because you don't understand it. If you don't understand praying in tongues, you know you don't understand it. Every Christian has the right to pray in other tongues. Praying in tongues is simply letting your spirit do the talking when you don't know what to pray. Romans 8:26. There are only so many words in the English language and chances are you only know less than half. Let your spirit pray, when you don't know what else to say. But again, after you're done talking in the spirit, stop and get quiet to listen to see if God gives you any instructions. Chances are that He will give something specific and simple, like cook dinner today or stop nagging today.

Reasons for Divorce

There are a few legal reasons for divorce, however it would be best to avoid getting to the place of divorce in the first place by following the groundwork as laid out by God in Gen 2:24.

However, in some cases, divorce can be a way for many to move from being a victim to having victory in life. Whenever you have trouble and temptation in life, God will provide a way of escape (1 Cor. 10:13)

“If a man marries a woman and she does not please him because he has found something offensive in her, then he may draw up a divorce document, give it to her, and evict her from his house.” -Deuteronomy 24:1 NET

Now according to this verse, what is grounds for divorce? He has found something “offensive” about her! That is the law that was written in the bible for all to read and follow. Why would God give a command that if a man doesn’t like a woman to give here a bill of divorcement, if he hated divorce? No, the problem wasn’t divorce as we discovered earlier, the problem was men back in biblical times committing violence against women, just because after a time the man began to not like the woman anymore.

We have been taught that it was only if there was adultery would divorce be legal, but the law said that if adultery was found, the penalty was death;

And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. –Lev. 20:10

What if your husband doesn’t want to be with you anymore? 1 Corinthians 7:14 gives a pretty clear answer on what to do there… Keep in mind when reading this that “depart” here doesn’t mean divorce, but rather Paul is exhorting married people not to simply walk away from the marriage, but rather be reconciled to one another.

“And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?”

(1Corinthians 7:10-16 KJVS)

Examples where God told someone to get a divorce or allowed divorce:

Example 1: Very few people seem to be aware or recognize the instances where God actually instigates a divorce. Of course the first such instance where God told a man to divorce a wife was before the law was written in Genesis 21. The back-story is that Sarah gave to Abraham a servant named Hagar to be his wife (Gen 16:3), because Sarah figured she was too old to have children to fulfill the thing God had promised them. Of course as with any situation where you have two women at odds with one another, things were getting pretty heated and Sarah, naturally, became jealous of Hagar (Gen 16:4). An of course, Abraham was right in the middle of the whole situation.

Everything finally came to a head when Sarah told Abraham to divorce (garash) Hagar because she didn’t want Hagar and her son to share Abraham’s inheritance (Gen 21:10). The word “garash” used there gives the sense of Sarah was telling Abraham to annul the agreement and send them both packing. Of course Abraham didn’t want to do this because he had a son by this woman, and you can imagine how heart-wrenching this situation was.

So God comes on the scene and simply tells Abraham to listen to Sarah, and “garash” Hagar (Gen 21:12). So with child in tow, Abraham gave Hagar a little food and a care package and sent them both, mother and child, packing. However, God being the good God that he is, took care of the woman and the child, Ishmael, and made him a nation too, since he was Abraham’s seed as well.

Example 2: Ezra 9 and 10. This was like a mass divorce where the people of Israel per usual got out of the will of God and married people they had no business marrying. The operative verse here would be Ezra 10:3 where the men decide to make a covenant with God to correct the past mistakes and put away their wives according to the law as prescribed in Deut 24.

Why do we (or should we) Participate in communion?

2009-01-04T19:22:00.001-05:00

Communion is seen as a religious act carried out by Christians as just a part of something that we do either on the 1st Sunday or at other specially appointed times throughout the year. Many people take communion or go through the ritual without really thinking about why. Some churches use real wine and real bread, while other use grape juice and some type of styrofoam wafer that tends to melt in your mouth. As to why we take communion, the answer there is pretty simple: because Jesus told us to do this to remember Him and what He did for us. This episode is primarily referred to as the Lord's Supper. The Lord's Supper can be found in 5 books of the bible, Matt 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:15-20, John 6:51-58. The account in John is where Jesus shocks the crowd by telling them to eat His flesh and drink His blood, which I don't care who are where you are, that just sounds crazy. However, He was making the point about him giving up his life for our sins, so instead of pouring out a 40 like we do to remember Tupac or other G's that have died "in the struggle", we should just take communion. Here's the account from John in the Amplified Bible:

"I [Myself] am this Living Bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this Bread, he will live forever; and also the Bread that I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh (body).Then the Jews angrily contended with one another, saying, How is He able to give us His flesh to eat? And Jesus said to them, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, you cannot have any life in you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood [unless you appropriate His life and the saving merit of His blood].He who feeds on My flesh and drinks My blood has (possesses now) eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] on the last day.For My flesh is true and genuine food, and My blood is true and genuine drink.He who feeds on My flesh and drinks My blood dwells continually in Me, and I [in like manner dwell continually] in him.Just as the living Father sent Me and I live by (through, because of) the Father, even so whoever continues to feed on Me [whoever takes Me for his food and is nourished by Me] shall [in his turn] live through and because of Me.This is the Bread that came down from heaven. It is not like the manna which our forefathers ate, and yet died; he who takes this Bread for his food shall live forever."
(John 6:51-58 AMP)

The rules on communion come from the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:20-34. I pasted below the account as read in The Message version of the bible, because it reads a little better than the KJV version. However, I would encourage you to read it in other versions as well.

"And then I find that you bring your divisions to worship—you come together, and instead of eating the Lord's Supper, you bring in a lot of food from the outside and make pigs of yourselves. Some are left out, and go home hungry. Others have to be carried out, too drunk to walk. I can't believe it! Don't you have your own homes to eat and drink in? Why would you stoop to desecrating God's church? Why would you actually shame God's poor? I never would have believed you would stoop to this. And I'm not going to stand by and say nothing.
Let me go over with you again exactly what goes on in the Lord's Supper and why it is so centrally important. I received my instructions from the Master himself and passed them on to you. The Master, Jesus, on the night of his betrayal, took bread. Having given thanks, he broke it and said,
This is my body, broken for you. Do this to remember me.
After supper, he did the same thing with the cup: This cup is my blood, my new covenant with you. Each time you drink this cup, remember me.
What you must solemnly realize is that every time you eat this bread and every time you drink this cup, you reenact in your words and actions the death of the Master. You will be drawn back to this meal again and again until the Master returns. You must never let familiarity breed contempt.
Anyone who eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Master irreverently is like part of the crowd that jeered and spit on him at his death. Is that the kind of "remembrance" you want to be part of? Examine your motives, test your heart, come to this meal in holy awe.
If you give no thought (or worse, don't care) about the broken body of the Master when you eat and drink, you're running the risk of serious consequences. That's why so many of you even now are listless and sick, and others have gone to an early grave. If we get this straight now, we won't have to be straightened out later on. Better to be confronted by the Master now than to face a fiery confrontation later.
So, my friends, when you come together to the Lord's Table, be reverent and courteous with one another. If you're so hungry that you can't wait to be served, go home and get a sandwich. But by no means risk turning this Meal into an eating and drinking binge or a family squabble. It is a spiritual meal—a love feast.
The other things you asked about, I'll respond to in person when I make my next visit."
(1Corinthians 11:20-34 MESSAGE)

Last but not least are the scriptures from Matthew, Mark, and Luke from the New English Translation of the bible:

"While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after giving thanks he broke it, gave it to his disciples, and said, "Take, eat, this is my body." And after taking the cup and giving thanks, he gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood, the blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, from now on I will not drink of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.""
(Matthew 26:26-29 NET)
"While they were eating, he took bread, and after giving thanks he broke it, gave it to them, and said, "Take it. This is my body." And after taking the cup and giving thanks, he gave it to them, and they all drank from it. He said to them, "This is my blood, the blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many. I tell you the truth, I will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.""
(Mark 14:22-25 NET)
"And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves. For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."Then he took bread, and after giving thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." And in the same way he took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."
(Luke 22:15-20 NET)

Wait on the Lord

2008-12-26T17:29:00.001-05:00

Should we as Christians wait on the Lord to fix things in our lives? When most people say, "Wait on the Lord," they are referring to the scripture in the bible that reads, "Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD." (Psalms 27:14 KJVS) Most people read this verse as saying when you're going through rough times in your life, whether marital problems, financial pressure, that one should just "hang in there", wait on the Lord and be of good courage. This often puts people into a "sit-down, don't do anything and don't move" attitude. One of the most relevant definitions I've found for the word "wait" is "To remain or rest in expectation". This means to stay in expectation by staying mindful of Him and what He promised. In order to do that you have to have an active relationship with God. I know when I'm waiting on my wife to get ready to go somewhere, I'm checking on her status, I'm talking to her to see if there is anything I need to do on my end to help her get ready, because I'm waiting in expectation for her to be ready to go.

However, there are a few more references in the King James Version of the bible with the exact phrase "wait on the Lord".

Psa. 37:34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it. This verse seems to carry the tone that I'm getting at in this post. It says that you have to wait and keep His way in order for him to lift you up to a place to inherit the land.

Prov. 20:22 Say not thou, I will recompense evil; but wait on the LORD, and he shall save thee. This seems to be inline with what I heard a minister say one Sunday when he said that, "To wait on the on the Lord means to wait on him like a waiter waits on you at a resturant. In other words, to wait on the Lord means to serve Him. It's hard to serve someone without obeying them and doing what they told you to do.

Job 36:11 says "If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures."

So to answer the question, "Should we wait on the Lord to fix our problems?", the answer is yes if we know how to wait on the Lord.

How about you set the record straight Mr. and Mrs. Christian

2008-12-26T15:59:00.000-05:00

This is cross-posted from a Facebook discussion board 1,000,000 Christians praying for Obama. I didn't want it to get lost in the noise...

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned what I'm about to say, but here goes. I've been amazed at how many white friends of mine who are Christians are really struggling with the Obama presidency while most of my black Christian friends are elated. For the record, I'm a registered independent, and I voted for Bush in 2000 and failed to vote in 2004. I voted for Bush in 2000 because I believed that he held true to some of my "Christian" values and beliefs. However, over the years, I think that we as Christians have somehow equated the Republican Party as the party of Christian values and the Democratic Party as the party of baby killing, gay-loving heathens.

Point 1: Jesus was not and is not a Republican, Democrat, or Libertarian. I wish Christians would point that out before they start yelling about "family values" because that would at least keep our "witness" in check. Jesus was not a conservative or liberal or even an American.

Point 2: God is not in control. To give in on dislike for Obama on the notion that God is in control, is a mistake. Because, what if Obama DOES mess up? Remember I voted for Bush in 2000. Is God in control of the economy and the war right now? Because if so, He's the one that needs to be impeached... If God was in control, there wouldn't be war, hate, rape, robbery, etc., because God is in control in Heaven, and we don't hear about the crime rate in Heaven. If God was in control, we wouldn't have babies being aborted in the first place, which leads me to my 3rd point...

Point 3: If abortion and gay marriage are the only two reasons not to support Obama, that's a pretty weak argument. These social issues were brought on by the Church of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ not doing its job. How many people have you led to Jesus? How many people has your life and/or marriage been an example for?! Better yet, how many people were watching your "Christian" life and decided that they would be better off NOT going to church or trying to be a "Christian"?

What if every family taught their children not to have sex before marriage? Would the abortion rate go up or down? What if Christian men didn't cheat on their wives with young girls and force them to get an abortion? The abortion thing wouldn't be an issue if Pastors in churches would teach the Bible as it relates to practical every day life.

As for homosexuality, how many people turned to homosexuality as a result of some priest that molested them at some church? or had a father or uncle molest them in their "Christian" home?

This is not to excuse homosexuality or abortion, but there are plenty more sins and morality issues that God doesn't like (i.e. hatred, racism, adultery, fornication, lying, gossiping, etc, etc, etc..) Sure, killing babies is bad. But we've been killing people for thousands of years, some just out of pure hate. You have to understand that the Bible says that faith works by way of Love (Galatians 5:6). The Christian Church in America doesn't have a leg to stand on with any of these social issues because the world don't know us by our love. There is very little true love in the Church in America. Just look around the next time you go to church, and see how many different faces you see...

Point 4: Why are we trying to legislate morality in the first place? I thought that was why Jesus died on the cross? How awesome would it have been if Jesus could have passed a law instead of dying on the Cross!

Point 5: Out of over 200 years of history and after 400+ years of slavery, bigotry, racial hatred and division, we have a democratically elected black President of the United States of America. How can that get lost in all the fear and apprehension (which by the way wasn't given by God according to 2 Tim 1:7). Adding to the fact that not only is he just a black man, but he is a person who both has a appreciation for what blacks have been experiencing all of their lives because of his skin color, and has an appreciation for living and growing up in "white America" because he grew up in a white household.

In conclusion, I truly hope that you, take the time to open your mouth and truly pray for and pray about President-Elect Obama. In the process of praying, give yourself time to hear back from God about what he has to say about President - Elect Barack Hussein Obama, then take the time to look into your life and see what things are "giving place to the devil" to allow hatred, distrust, and pure evil to seep into your heart and mind...

Help Christians not Suck....

Be Blessed...

Tithing Lesson 5

2007-09-18T00:26:00.001-04:00

Notes from message "More Is Possible Part 27: Tithing Lesson 5"

Pastor Mike is continuing his teaching from his book "Rich Is Not A Bad Word"

Tithing Lesson 5

A. Tithing is the infrastructure, the foundation, the basic framework that we build everything upon

Tithing is not just a practice, but it is an everlasting eternal principle..
As Christians under the new covenant, we are called and instructed by God to tithe.

B. The Consequences of Disobedience

The disobedient become subject to the curse.
The non-tither loses the special protection plan that is available to the tither

a. There should be a decided, distinct advantage that the tither should have.

b. Malachi 3:10

The "storehouse" is where you are being fed spiritually (local church)

The word "meat" is a reference to financial resources.

c. If the will of God is going to be carried out in the earth, there must be financial resources.

d. God is a very good businessman. His plan does not include sacrificing chickens, having

raffles, etc. His financial plan to establish His work in the earth is tithes and offerings.

C. Two Major Benefits to the Tither

God promises the "windows of heaven blessing".
God promises abundance - "a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive".

The windows of heaven blessing manifest itself through:

Supernatural ability to function at a high level of excellence and integrity. Deut 8:18
Favor – when God raises up others, when God touches others' hearts to use their resources, their ability, their finances on your behalf.
Open doors of opportunity.
Income from unexpected sources. (God has a lot of ways to bless us)

As a tither, you also have a right to receive ideas for increase. God wants to inspire your mind and give you ideas.

Finally, God wants to give you wisdom to manage what you have. We often don't need more money, we just need to learn to manage what we have and if we start managing better what we have, then God will give us more.

D. The Protection Plan

Rubbing up against "the best"

2007-08-30T14:29:00.001-04:00

I've been sitting in a meeting at a rather prestigious resort
facility watching a group talk about watches. I have a pretty nice
Fossil watch that I've had for quite some time and I paid about $90
for the watch in 2001. However, the watch that they're talking about
here (and I know you're probably thinking Rolex, but its not) is a
very nice watch and I've heard prices thrown around from $3,000 to
over $30,000 for a watch. I've heard "prosperity preachers" talk
about how God wants His children to enjoy the best and I'm trying to
figure out, why would God want me to have a $30,000 watch. I must
admit, this is one of the best watches that I've ever seen. I'm
looking at how its made and how it is constructed, and I can attest
that they are using some the finest materials, movements, technology,
etc. to make this watch.

So to answer my own question, I have to go back to a fundamental
truth that God is rich and he can afford it. Then I have to realize
that most fathers do want the best for their children. So why would
God want me to posses and wear a watch like that? Well, there are
many reasons, but the one that sticks out at me was a reaction that I
had to a woman that was wearing one of the watches. The watch stood
out on her arm, and I know that I have never seen a watch that looked
like it. Something inside me wanted to ask her more about the watch,
about her, about what she did for a living, etc.

The $90 watch that I currently wear has never had someone stop to
make a connection with me - the kind of connection that would allow
me the opportunity to tell them about my Father, who empowered me to
be able to purchase and wear this watch. Now I'm not hating on the
watch that I have, but I recognized that the watch isn't about me as
much as it is about the stuff and circumstances around the watch. I
thank God that he wants to use his children and the stuff that the
children have to make connections with others to tell them more about
how this came to be.

Go figure...

Subject-matter to cover in the coming weeks and months

2007-08-26T19:39:00.000-04:00

Things that people believe that ARE NOT true:

God is in Control (of everything)

God can make you happy.

All things (good or bad) work together for the good of them that love the Lord and called according to His purpose.

Cleanliness is next to Godliness

Humans should give thanks to God for everything good or bad that happens to them

God uses bad things to draw men closer to Him

God wants you to be poor

God doesn't want you to be rich or have nice things

God won't put more on you than you can bear

The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.

No Pain No Gain

Things that some Christians say or believe that are false:

Tithing is not for today

Speaking in Tongues is not for today

God hates divorce

Truths that people don't realize about God:

God is Pro Choice

God is not in Control of everything

God can't make you be happy.

God doesn't like religion

God does love porn stars (and pimps, murderers, thugs, and other people that the average Christian doesn't like.)

All things (good or bad) work together for the good of them that love the Lord and are called according to His purpose.

2007-08-26T19:36:00.002-04:00

It is a common belief among Christians who have heard it over and
over, and some have even read it and taken it at face value. Romans
8:28 in the KJV reads, "And we know that all things work together for
good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to
his purpose." For most Christians, this verse tells them that no
matter what we go through, good or bad, God is working it out for our
good. Just as most other doctrines inspired by Satan and propagated
by well meaning Christians, Pastors, Teachers, Apostles, etc, their
doctrine is part truth and part lie. The truth is that, God along
with the Holy Spirit and angels, do have a way of turning bad
situations around and even bringing good things out of really bad
situations. The lie comes in when we somehow welcome tragedy in
order to get the good result, and therefore belief that we have to
have rain in order to see the sunshine.

Lets look at the following example: There was a single father that
was strung out on drugs and had two daughters. The daughters went to
church every Sunday with their aunt. The girls often prayed for
their father to be delivered from drug addiction so that they could
live in peace with their father. The father wanted to change, but
didn't know how. One night after a long binge of doing meth and
crack cocaine, the father overdosed and lay helpless on the floor.
The girls came home from church and found the father lying on the
floor and the aunt, which was also the father's sister, was
distraught and frantically dialed 911. Long story short, the father
ended up in a coma for 2 weeks and the girls were certain that he was
going to die. After coming out of the coma, the father finally
realized how his addiction negatively affected his family. He
finally decided to go to church, read, study and live out the Word of
God that he was learning in church, and was totally delivered from
drugs and alcohol. Now the question is, did God make all of this
happen so the father and girls would have a happier life? Surely
not! God was speaking to the father years before the coma. He even
tried to speak to the father before the girls mother (who was also on crack) gave up on the
relationship and the children. God could have brought about a good result without the
tragedy.

What does the verse actually mean? Well to find out what it means we
have to find out what it says. I'm not a greek scholar, but I did
stay at a Holiday Inn last night (and did a google search). Read
this article to get a good understanding how this verse is
translated. You also have to look at what the bible says in
context. To do this simply back up a few verses and read what Paul
is actually talking about. Actually, to get into the mindset of what
he's addressing here, you may have to go back a few chapters. Paul
is addressing this letter to the Romans. In chapter 7 (and keep in
mind that Paul didn't add the chapter and verse makers) he was
basically keeping it real by telling the new Roman converts about his
struggles to want to live right but sometimes coming up short. So he
starts off chapter 8 with, (because of the redemptive work of Jesus,
"[Therefore] there is now no condemnation for those that are in
Christ Jesus. This verse introduces the context of Romans 8:28 in
(or living in accordance with the Words of) Christ Jesus.

"All things" needs to be qualified. All things in this case doesn't
actually mean all things good and evil, but only all things talked about in the preceding verses.

Satan uses the Romans 8:28 lie to get people not take personal
responsibility for their actions, or give up fighting him when bad
things happen, because after all, God is working it out for our
good. I'm definitely not trying to take away the miracle working
power of God in people's lives, but what we must do is 1.) put Romans
8:28 in context, and 2.) add balance to the doctrine that God will
work even bad things out for our good.

The balance comes from resisting and preventing the bad stuff in the
first place.

Is God is in Control? ...of everything? I don't think so.

2007-08-26T19:36:00.001-04:00

I know that the whole "God is in Control of everything" doctrine is an engrained in most peoples thinking, but in all of the stories mentioned your post have the same principles at work. God didn't cause or intend any of those things to happen, but he make another way to bring about His plan. There is a Satan who looks for people that he can destroy. He tries to destroy them, and God still makes His plan work even though Satan tries, and sometimes we help to screw it up. God is not in control, the way that we think He is, because if he was there would be no murder, rape, robbery, catasrophy, torture, etc. That's something that you can see if you just understand that God is control in Heaven, because there's none of that stuff up there. On earth however, he gave man dominion of the earth. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 1:26

The notion that God is in control of everything that goes on in our lives or in the world is so far from the bible truth, it is ridiculous. The bible itself seems to spell out quite clearly that God is NOT in control of things on this earth.

God won't put more on you than you can bear?

2007-08-26T19:34:00.000-04:00

Did you know that this well rehearsed saying in the church is nowhere
to be found in the bible? The actual verse where we get this from is
1st Corinthians 10:13, "There hath no temptation taken you but such
as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to
be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also
make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. "

A lot of people really don't know what this mean and as is the
fashion of man, we interpret it based on our experience rather than
accurate bible doctrine.

The fact is, God doesn't put anything on you and he's never put
anything on anyone except blessings. Putting stuff on you is in
Satan's department. And before your head goes there, no they (God
and satan) don't work together for your good, that's in another section.

So what is Paul really saying? Here's a reading from the amplified
version of that verse...

For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter
how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on
you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has
come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not adjusted
and adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can
bear]. But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate
nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried
and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power
to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the
way out (the means of escape to ca landing place), that you may be
capable and strong and powerful to bear up under it patiently.

Note that nowhere in that verse did it say that God is putting
temptation on you. Temptation comes to us to separate us from God
and from what is right. That is the way it happened in the garden of
eden. Satan tempted Eve to separate man from God. God didn't allow
Eve to be tempted so he could see how she would handle pressure or to
test her faith! Remember, God had been working for six days straight
building this house for his children. On the seventh day he rested.
He gave man the keys to the house and went back home after giving man
some final instructions. He left earth in total trust of man to obey
what He had told man to do. Adam failed to subdue the earth and
everything in it like God had commanded him. He could have subdued
the snake in the garden and said no like God had told him too, but he
was deceived, and you know the rest of the story.